Talk Cancer

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have any cites for this? Something I could read? Google alt.support.diabetes for the topic. Alt.support.diabetes is as good as a cite in Misc.health.diabetes, that is to say worthless. I would appreciate a controlled medical study. It’s there.  Just google for it.  I’m not going to do your homework for you. What a fucking winner you are. YOU come and ask a question EXPECTING someone to help YOU, but YOU won’t do anything to help US help you. Why not just eat like a pig and get the doc to scrip you something when you weigh half a ton with BG’s through the roof?

I didn’t ask any question.  Sounds like you’re confusing me with the OP.   I merely added my own experience to the converstion in the thread.   My suggestion to you is to get some help with anger management. Priscilla — Did you know that green beans are the new noodles?

Response:

Do you have any cites for this? Something I could read? Google alt.support.diabetes for the topic. Alt.support.diabetes is as good as a cite in Misc.health.diabetes, that is to say worthless. I would appreciate a controlled medical study. It’s there.  Just google for it.  I’m not going to do your homework for you.

What a fucking winner you are. YOU come and ask a question EXPECTING someone to help YOU, but YOU won’t do anything to help US help you. Why not just eat like a pig and get the doc to scrip you something when you weigh half a ton with BG’s through the roof? My second comment is that I made a deal with my doctor when I first went to him (I was on Rezulin and then Actos) that is I could maintain low BGs I could get away from medicine. I maintain them with diet and exercise not and am happy to have one less medicine to hurt my system. The side effects of the meds are real and documented in studies. OK.  Good luck.  Personally, I’d rather not have a heart attack.

No, you’d obviously rather eat your way through Wal-Marts and gobble down meds to allow it. Enjoy it while it lasts. Beav

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist. I’m a little intrigued Priscilla. Do you WANT to take meds in favour of NOT? Seems a little odd to me that you’re looking for a new diabetologist/specialist/endoist who’ll hand you meds when your numbers are "so good" that your current guy doesn’t think meds are necessary. What are they btw? Yeah, I want meds.  I want them to counter the insulin resistence which may be attacking my arteries despite how tight I keep my numbers controlled. But if your numbers are Ok, why should the resistance be causing artery problems? It seems to me the resisitance isn’t so great that the resistance itself should cause a problem. Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t fathom anyone who actually WANTS to take meds.

But IR does damage your arteries, regardless of BG control.  I can’t explain the motivation, and it may seem to you that it doesn’t make sense, but it’s true. Priscilla

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist. I’m a little intrigued Priscilla. Do you WANT to take meds in favour of NOT? Seems a little odd to me that you’re looking for a new diabetologist/specialist/endoist who’ll hand you meds when your numbers are "so good" that your current guy doesn’t think meds are necessary. What are they btw? Yeah, I want meds.  I want them to counter the insulin resistence which may be attacking my arteries despite how tight I keep my numbers controlled. But if your numbers are Ok, why should the resistance be causing artery problems? It seems to me the resisitance isn’t so great that the resistance itself should cause a problem. Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t fathom anyone who actually WANTS to take meds. But IR does damage your arteries, regardless of BG control.

Ok, let’s eximine that a bit more closely. If resistance does damage your arteries, but YOUR resistance is such that healthy eating reduces it to the point where your BG is fine, where’s the problem? I rather believe that it’s the high levels of sugar in your blood which causes the damage. However….. I could be wrong, although it’s the first time I’ve ever heard of it.  I can’t explain the motivation, and it may seem to you that it doesn’t make sense, but it’s true.

Do you have any cites for this? Something I could read? I worry that IF you get on meds to address your resistance, you’re going to run into the problem of having hypo’s, or you’re going to ignore the healthy eating and suffer the consequences. Beav

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist. I’m a little intrigued Priscilla. Do you WANT to take meds in favour of NOT? Seems a little odd to me that you’re looking for a new diabetologist/specialist/endoist who’ll hand you meds when your numbers are "so good" that your current guy doesn’t think meds are necessary. What are they btw? Yeah, I want meds.  I want them to counter the insulin resistence which may be attacking my arteries despite how tight I keep my numbers controlled. But if your numbers are Ok, why should the resistance be causing artery problems? It seems to me the resisitance isn’t so great that the resistance itself should cause a problem. Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t fathom anyone who actually WANTS to take meds. But IR does damage your arteries, regardless of BG control. Ok, let’s eximine that a bit more closely. If resistance does damage your arteries, but YOUR resistance is such that healthy eating reduces it to the point where your BG is fine, where’s the problem?

Low carbing does not affect my insulin resistence.  I remain just as resistent, I’m just requiring less insulin, so the resistence is noticed yet. I rather believe that it’s the high levels of sugar in your blood which causes the damage. However….. I could be wrong, although it’s the first time I’ve ever heard of it.

I imagine a google would set you straight. I can’t explain the motivation, and it may seem to you that it doesn’t make sense, but it’s true. Do you have any cites for this? Something I could read?

Google alt.support.diabetes for the topic.   I worry that IF you get on meds to address your resistance, you’re going to run into the problem of having hypo’s, or you’re going to ignore the healthy eating and suffer the consequences.

Metformin does not generally cause hypos, nor does Starlix.  These are the meds I’m requesting. Priscilla

Response:

Starlix and Prandin are in the same class of drugs and they both can definately cause hypos.  I’ve gone as low as 40 when taking it.  I usually only use it at breakfast now because that’s when I handle carbs the poorest. I will also take it when I go out to eat. No, Starlix is not in the same class of drugs as Prandin.  It’s in an entirely different category. Check out Rick Mendosa’s piece on it at http://www.mendosa.com/starlix.htm There’s only a low occurrence of mild hypoglycemia with it because it appears to sense when insulin is no longer needed and stop the production.

"Low occurence of hypo" "Appears" to sense? That FILLS me with confidence. Beav

Response:

Why? I had good control with dietandexercise within weeks of diagnosis, and am happy to keep it that way. The only thing that might interest me about taking meds is metformin for heart protection and an occasional Starlix/Prandin for special occasions. But on the whole I’d rather avoid meds if I can; they do have their own set of side effects/problems/timing/etc which need to be considered — in _addition to_ the d&e I’m already doing! bj – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist. Priscilla

Response:

Starlix and Prandin are in the same class of drugs and they both can definately cause hypos.  I’ve gone as low as 40 when taking it.  I usually only use it at breakfast now because that’s when I handle carbs the poorest. I will also take it when I go out to eat.

No, Starlix is not in the same class of drugs as Prandin.  It’s in an entirely different category. Check out Rick Mendosa’s piece on it at http://www.mendosa.com/starlix.htm   There’s only a low occurrence of mild hypoglycemia with it because it appears to sense when insulin is no longer needed and stop the production. Priscilla

Response:

Do you have any cites for this? Something I could read? Google alt.support.diabetes for the topic.  

Alt.support.diabetes is as good as a cite in Misc.health.diabetes, that is to say worthless. I would appreciate a controlled medical study. My second comment is that I made a deal with my doctor when I first went to him (I was on Rezulin and then Actos) that is I could maintain low BGs I could get away from medicine. I maintain them with diet and exercise not and am happy to have one less medicine to hurt my system. The side effects of the meds are real and documented in studies. — See ya, –Ray B.      Live near Des Moines, IA, USA

Response:

Do you have any cites for this? Something I could read? Google alt.support.diabetes for the topic.   Alt.support.diabetes is as good as a cite in Misc.health.diabetes, that is to say worthless. I would appreciate a controlled medical study.

It’s there.  Just google for it.  I’m not going to do your homework for you. My second comment is that I made a deal with my doctor when I first went to him (I was on Rezulin and then Actos) that is I could maintain low BGs I could get away from medicine. I maintain them with diet and exercise not and am happy to have one less medicine to hurt my system. The side effects of the meds are real and documented in studies.

OK.  Good luck.  Personally, I’d rather not have a heart attack. Priscilla — Did you know that green beans are the new noodles?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But IR does damage your arteries, regardless of BG control. Ok, let’s eximine that a bit more closely. If resistance does damage your arteries, but YOUR resistance is such that healthy eating reduces it to the point where your BG is fine, where’s the problem? Low carbing does not affect my insulin resistence.  I remain just as resistent, I’m just requiring less insulin, so the resistence is noticed yet. I rather believe that it’s the high levels of sugar in your blood which causes the damage. However….. I could be wrong, although it’s the first time I’ve ever heard of it. I imagine a google would set you straight.

I imagine it wouls, but I also imagined that you, being in full possesion of the facts, could point me to where YOU discovered this fact. Seems like I was wrong. I can’t explain the motivation, and it may seem to you that it doesn’t make sense, but it’s true. Do you have any cites for this? Something I could read? Google alt.support.diabetes for the topic.

I don’t want another NG discussion where anecdotes are the norm, I want something concrete. I worry that IF you get on meds to address your resistance, you’re going to run into the problem of having hypo’s, or you’re going to ignore the healthy eating and suffer the consequences. Metformin does not generally cause hypos, nor does Starlix.  These are the meds I’m requesting.

Metofrmin interferes with digestion so food isn’t absorbed probery (efficently), and it stops the liver from dumping sugar when your BG drops too low. That’s a hypo from where I’m sitting. Beav

Response:

Low carbing does not affect my insulin resistence.  I remain just as resistent, I’m just requiring less insulin, so the resistence is noticed yet.

Make that "less." Priscilla

Response:

Starlix and Prandin are in the same class of drugs and they both can definately cause hypos.  I’ve gone as low as 40 when taking it.  I usually only use it at breakfast now because that’s when I handle carbs the poorest. I will also take it when I go out to eat. c – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist. I’m a little intrigued Priscilla. Do you WANT to take meds in favour of NOT? Seems a little odd to me that you’re looking for a new diabetologist/specialist/endoist who’ll hand you meds when your numbers are "so good" that your current guy doesn’t think meds are necessary. What are they btw? Yeah, I want meds.  I want them to counter the insulin resistence which may be attacking my arteries despite how tight I keep my numbers controlled. But if your numbers are Ok, why should the resistance be causing artery problems? It seems to me the resisitance isn’t so great that the resistance itself should cause a problem. Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t fathom anyone who actually WANTS to take meds. But IR does damage your arteries, regardless of BG control. Ok, let’s eximine that a bit more closely. If resistance does damage your arteries, but YOUR resistance is such that healthy eating reduces it to the point where your BG is fine, where’s the problem? Low carbing does not affect my insulin resistence.  I remain just as resistent, I’m just requiring less insulin, so the resistence is noticed yet. I rather believe that it’s the high levels of sugar in your blood which causes the damage. However….. I could be wrong, although it’s the first time I’ve ever heard of it. I imagine a google would set you straight. I can’t explain the motivation, and it may seem to you that it doesn’t make sense, but it’s true. Do you have any cites for this? Something I could read? Google alt.support.diabetes for the topic. I worry that IF you get on meds to address your resistance, you’re going to run into the problem of having hypo’s, or you’re going to ignore the healthy eating and suffer the consequences. Metformin does not generally cause hypos, nor does Starlix.  These are the meds I’m requesting. Priscilla

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist. I’m a little intrigued Priscilla. Do you WANT to take meds in favour of NOT? Seems a little odd to me that you’re looking for a new diabetologist/specialist/endoist who’ll hand you meds when your numbers are "so good" that your current guy doesn’t think meds are necessary. What are they btw?

Yeah, I want meds.  I want them to counter the insulin resistence which may be attacking my arteries despite how tight I keep my numbers controlled.  And I want them so I can occasionally relax my control. My last A1c was 5.6, with a fasting BG of 105.  That’s the entirety of the information she had, along with a letter spelling out exactly why I wanted to try metformin and a small number of Starlix a month.  Nope.  My numbers are excellent, so I don’t need them.  End of story.  Totally dismissed my concern about the effects of insulin resistence and my stated need for some more wiggle room in my diet.  Nope.  Gotta suck it up.  No meds for me!  Bah.  She’s fired. Priscilla

Response:

Why? I had good control with dietandexercise within weeks of diagnosis, and am happy to keep it that way. The only thing that might interest me about taking meds is metformin for heart protection and an occasional Starlix/Prandin for special occasions.

That’s what I want.  If insulin resistence is going to damage my arteries no matter how tight my BG control is, I want to fight that insulin resistence.  I am being forbidden to even SEE if metformin agrees with me.   Not acceptable. But on the whole I’d rather avoid meds if I can; they do have their own set of side effects/problems/timing/etc which need to be considered — in _addition to_ the d&e I’m already doing!

OK, but to not be allowed to even try them?   Priscilla

Response:

I see what you mean. And IMO you ought to have the choice to try. I was even thinking about asking my endo about this — but he’s leaving town (BIG sob from numerous of his thyca patients!). He was only incidentally "treating" my diabetes (write strip scrips, add blood tests when I went in for thyroid tests) but is in tune with my "obsession" about lotsa testing. I’ll have to see how my new endo turns out on this (I’ll stay where I am for thyca followup — if you think it’s hard finding an endo for dm, try finding one who knows what s/he’s doing about thyroid cancer!). And I’m pretty sure my internist wouldn’t understand my thinking on this at all, given her bafflement about how much I (want to) test. She’d just tell me to run the idea by my endo, as she did about increasing my test strips. Meanwhile, it is nice to know that I *can* control at least my bg with d&e only. Good luck to both of us! bj – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. But on the whole I’d rather avoid meds if I can; they do have their own set of side effects/problems/timing/etc which need to be considered — in _addition to_ the d&e I’m already doing! OK, but to not be allowed to even try them? Priscilla

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist. I’m a little intrigued Priscilla. Do you WANT to take meds in favour of NOT? Seems a little odd to me that you’re looking for a new diabetologist/specialist/endoist who’ll hand you meds when your numbers are "so good" that your current guy doesn’t think meds are necessary. What are they btw? Yeah, I want meds.  I want them to counter the insulin resistence which may be attacking my arteries despite how tight I keep my numbers controlled.

But if your numbers are Ok, why should the resistance be causing artery problems? It seems to me the resisitance isn’t so great that the resistance itself should cause a problem. Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t fathom anyone who actually WANTS to take meds.  And I want them so I can occasionally relax my control. Ahhh, so a rider to my last sentence…… unless they haven’t the necessary disciplne. My last A1c was 5.6, with a fasting BG of 105.  That’s the entirety of the information she had, along with a letter spelling out exactly why I wanted to try metformin and a small number of Starlix a month.  Nope.  My numbers are excellent, so I don’t need them.

With an A1c of 5.6, I’d tend to agree.  End of story.  Totally dismissed my concern about the effects of insulin resistence

Your resistance isn’t a problem if you eat well. It’s like asking a doc for anti fat pills so you can scoff a bucketful of chocolate with no consequences.  and my stated need for some more wiggle room in my diet.

She’s likelt to see that "need" as more like a desire than a need. Docs rarely prescibe meds to satisfy anyones desires.  Nope.  Gotta suck it up.  No meds for me!  Bah.  She’s fired.

I can imagine she would be. I can also imagine you having some trouble finding  REAL doctor who’ll prescribe you metformin just so you can eat the things you like. If you’re REALLY in the mood for eating food that’s obviously not good for you, why not buy OTC insulin and inject yourself into a whole new weight arena? I believe Regular insulin is non prescription in most states. Beav

Response:

Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor.

My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist. Priscilla

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was diagonosed with type 2 diabetes about 1.5 years ago.  After a year on a low carb diet and consistently good BGL (blood glucose levels) my doctor has suggested I get of the glucophage and stay on the low carb diet. However as a condition I must buy a monitor and test daily. Here is my problem:  I am unable to stick myself.  This is not a problem with pain or with blood…it is a problem with "twitching" away from an approaching sharp object.  I cannot even watch a nurse stick me as I will flinch away at the last instant.  I am looking for a system that would stick me automatically and take the blood all at once. Does a system like this exist? I have also read about a watch that will measure my Glucose w/o requiring a blood sample (using electrical resistance I believe)……and another system that requires no actual blood but uses a microscopic abrasion with a laser to draw tiny droplets of blood.  Do these work and are they reliable? If there are no system that are what I need….which  "other" systems are the best out there? Also I heard of a monitor that will measure Cholesterol as well as Glucose at the same time….am intrigued by this.  ANy thoughts on it?

I have seen the Cholesterol monitoring devices, but as far as I saw they only measured the Cholesterol, not the glucose at the same time. I also saw something that intrigued me at a store, an A1 monitor! They seemed quite expensive and the strips were like 5 in a box!! I will have to look into it further. Good luck! Cat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Alok

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was diagonosed with type 2 diabetes about 1.5 years ago.  After a year on a low carb diet and consistently good BGL (blood glucose levels) my doctor has suggested I get of the glucophage and stay on the low carb diet. However as a condition I must buy a monitor and test daily. Here is my problem:  I am unable to stick myself.  This is not a problem with pain or with blood…it is a problem with "twitching" away from an approaching sharp object.  I cannot even watch a nurse stick me as I will flinch away at the last instant.  I am looking for a system that would stick me automatically and take the blood all at once. Does a system like this exist? I have also read about a watch that will measure my Glucose w/o requiring a blood sample (using electrical resistance I believe)……and another system that requires no actual blood but uses a microscopic abrasion with a laser to draw tiny droplets of blood.  Do these work and are they reliable? If there are no system that are what I need….which  "other" systems are the best out there? Also I heard of a monitor that will measure Cholesterol as well as Glucose at the same time….am intrigued by this.  ANy thoughts on it? Thanks Alok

You will get over that fear reaction after a week or two.  Just do it. There is no real alternative.    Practice till you get it right. Another thing is that you should be sticking yourself on the SIDE of the finger, not the tip.  It hurts less that way.   There is a pen that I got with my meter that allows you to set the pin to different depths.  I find I get just enough blood when I set it for 3.   I started by using a lower level, but didn’t get enough blood to test. You can overcome that fear by just doing it. Regards, Evelyn

Response:

Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. My internist won’t let me have metformin because I’ve got down to such good numbers with diet (and a little exercise) alone.  That’s why I’ve now got an appointment with a diabetologist and am looking for a new internist.

I’m a little intrigued Priscilla. Do you WANT to take meds in favour of NOT? Seems a little odd to me that you’re looking for a new diabetologist/specialist/endoist who’ll hand you meds when your numbers are "so good" that your current guy doesn’t think meds are necessary. What are they btw? Beav

Response:

Here is my problem:  I am unable to stick myself.  This is not a problem with pain or with blood…it is a problem with "twitching" away from an approaching sharp object.

My daughter kept cringing from this, until she stopped using the automatic device.  Now she uses BD ultrafine lancets by themselves.  It gives her more of a feeling of control.   Try that. BL BL "As the waves pass the rock, their shape is changed.  There is a hologram of the rock within the wave that comes forward and crashes on the beach, then there’s a reflected wave back."   Ralph Abraham   "I’d like to learn to windsurf."  BL

Response:

I was diagonosed with type 2 diabetes about 1.5 years ago.  After a year on a low carb diet and consistently good BGL (blood glucose levels) my doctor has suggested I get of the glucophage and stay on the low carb diet. However as a condition I must buy a monitor and test daily. Here is my problem:  I am unable to stick myself.  This is not a problem with pain or with blood…it is a problem with "twitching" away from an approaching sharp object.  I cannot even watch a nurse stick me as I will flinch away at the last instant.  I am looking for a system that would stick me automatically and take the blood all at once. Does a system like this exist? I have also read about a watch that will measure my Glucose w/o requiring a blood sample (using electrical resistance I believe)……and another system that requires no actual blood but uses a microscopic abrasion with a laser to draw tiny droplets of blood.  Do these work and are they reliable? If there are no system that are what I need….which  "other" systems are the best out there? Also I heard of a monitor that will measure Cholesterol as well as Glucose at the same time….am intrigued by this.  ANy thoughts on it? Thanks Alok

Response:

Here is my problem:  I am unable to stick myself.  This is not a problem with pain or with blood…it is a problem with "twitching" away from an approaching sharp object.  I cannot even watch a nurse stick me as I will flinch away at the last instant.

Been there, done that.  Honestly, it’s only hard the first few times. You will get over it.  You’ll even get the knack of it.  However, eventually it’ll also become a boring nuisance.  Be on guard for that attitude change.  Don’t let yourself fall into the trap of either not testing when you should or only testing at times when the results are not particularly respresentative.  If you want to do minimum testing, test only at the times of day when your doctor tells you that you should and also whenever you feel odd and are curious.  Personally I test when I get up in the morning, two hours after every meal unless I know exactly from past experience what that exact meal is going to do to me under my current circumstances (hence a test would just show me what I already know, so I don’t bother), and before I go to bed at night. That usually ends up as four tests a day at most.  Some days even just two. If you don’t get over it within a dozen pricks or so, then you need psychiatric help. Also, if my doctor ever told me that I could get control with diet alone, I’d look for another doctor. – Dan

Response:

I was diagonosed with type 2 diabetes about 1.5 years ago.  After a year on a low carb diet and consistently good BGL (blood glucose levels) my doctor has suggested I get of the glucophage and stay on the low carb diet. However as a condition I must buy a monitor and test daily.

You’re joking.  Right?  If not, run.  Do not walk to another Dr.!  You should have been testing yourself all along.  If you don’t test, you have no way of knowing how your BG is doing.  You say it has been consistenltly good.  But how would you know this?  An A1c won’t tell you this. Here is my problem:  I am unable to stick myself.  This is not a problem with pain or with blood…it is a problem with "twitching" away from an approaching sharp object.  I cannot even watch a nurse stick me as I will flinch away at the last instant.  I am looking for a system that would stick me automatically and take the blood all at once. Does a system like this exist?

I don’t know if there is such a system.  I too used to have the same problem you did.  I got over it.  I realized I had no choice. I have also read about a watch that will measure my Glucose w/o requiring a blood sample (using electrical resistance I believe)……and another system that requires no actual blood but uses a microscopic abrasion with a laser to draw tiny droplets of blood.  Do these work and are they reliable?

It doesn’t work well.  And it doesn’t replace finger sticks.  They must still be done.  The reason for this device was to alert people of hypos. But it doesn’t work well at all. If there are no system that are what I need….which  "other" systems are the best out there? Also I heard of a monitor that will measure Cholesterol as well as Glucose at the same time….am intrigued by this.  ANy thoughts on it?

Haven’t heard of that one. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response: