IP they just cut the colon in two on both sides of the growth. Then sewed it back together. They fed me throught the veins and sure enough I had a bowel movement…albeit small and soft, but it happened. Also just passing gas was good enough for them

Got it. Given the location mine was in — the ascending/right side of the colon  – they can’t excise just the tumor section; if they do the adjacent sections lose their blood supply and die … often followed closely by the patient. You’ll never miss a small section, not even in nutrition absorption. I.P.

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Excellent news Dave. Ain’t it wonderful to wake up and realize you’re still alive?  And then to hear there’s a good chance you’ll be alive a lot longer is terrific. Best of luck on your recovery.     Alan

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Dave– Best to you for a speedy and complete recovery! I agree w/IP, what are you going to have a bowel movement *with*, if you get no food? Write again when you can.  Hopefully your pain is taken care of by now. laurel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was around 4:30 yesteray afternoon when they finally put me to sleep. I awoke in the recovery room at 11:00. Someone forgot to give me pain medication, or  kept it for themselves. They’ve put  me in a nice room though. It’s kinda like a suite, has a couch, three easy chairs, big tv.  The pain was bad I couldn’t enjoy it. It was late at night and the   nurses couldn’t get autorization to give me anything bu a non-narcotic called Tordol. At 3:00am they set up a button to give me 4ml,Demerol every ten minutes. It took till   8:00 am to get semicomfortal. But the news has all been good. The Dr said the colon growth (I’m notcalling it a tumor anymore) did not look malignant but is sill send it to some out fit in Dallas or San Antonio called Labcorp.No detecable cancer in lymph nodes. Since 9 of the biopsies were "peri-neural" invasion, they think it must be microspic and can be killed with radiation alone. They took out the enitire prostate, nerves and all. I’m still pain but if I just keep clicking the button I think I can catch up to it.     Anyway, I’m ver this part and ready to begin real rocovery. Little spacey feeling and hurt so I’mgoing to try to take a nap.  ai do have to wait for colon to move before I get real food. Now if I can just maintain this erection around the cathiter tube, I’ll be alright….lol God Bless David

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Welcome to the ‘other side’… Congratulations! KenA ====

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was around 4:30 yesteray afternoon when they finally put me to sleep. I awoke in the recovery room at 11:00. Someone forgot to give me pain medication, or  kept it for themselves. They’ve put  me in a nice room though. It’s kinda like a suite, has a couch, three easy chairs, big tv.  The pain was bad I couldn’t enjoy it. It was late at night and the   nurses couldn’t get autorization to give me anything bu a non-narcotic called Tordol. At 3:00am they set up a button to give me 4ml,Demerol every ten minutes. It took till   8:00 am to get semicomfortal. But the news has all been good. The Dr said the colon growth (I’m notcalling it a tumor anymore) did not look malignant but is sill send it to some out fit in Dallas or San Antonio called Labcorp.No detecable cancer in lymph nodes. Since 9 of the biopsies were "peri-neural" invasion, they think it must be microspic and can be killed with radiation alone. They took out the enitire prostate, nerves and all. I’m still pain but if I just keep clicking the button I think I can catch up to it.    Anyway, I’m ver this part and ready to begin real rocovery. Little spacey feeling and hurt so I’mgoing to try to take a nap.  ai do have to wait for colon to move before I get real food. Now if I can just maintain this erection around the cathiter tube, I’ll be alright….lol God Bless David

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Good goin’ Dave! Man, what a terrific attitude, too bad we can’t bottle it. I sure could use a dose from time to time! All the best. Tom

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That’s great news Dave. The bad part is there is absolutely no excuse for you being in pain. Somebody dropped the ball big time.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was around 4:30 yesteray afternoon when they finally put me to sleep. I awoke in the recovery room at 11:00. Someone forgot to give me pain medication, or  kept it for themselves. They’ve put  me in a nice room though. It’s kinda like a suite, has a couch, three easy chairs, big tv.  The pain was bad I couldn’t enjoy it. It was late at night and the   nurses couldn’t get autorization to give me anything bu a non-narcotic called Tordol. At 3:00am they set up a button to give me 4ml,Demerol every ten minutes. It took till   8:00 am to get semicomfortal. But the news has all been good. The Dr said the colon growth (I’m notcalling it a tumor anymore) did not look malignant but is sill send it to some out fit in Dallas or San Antonio called Labcorp.No detecable cancer in lymph nodes. Since 9 of the biopsies were "peri-neural" invasion, they think it must be microspic and can be killed with radiation alone. They took out the enitire prostate, nerves and all. I’m still pain but if I just keep clicking the button I think I can catch up to it.    Anyway, I’m ver this part and ready to begin real rocovery. Little spacey feeling and hurt so I’mgoing to try to take a nap.  ai do have to wait for colon to move before I get real food. Now if I can just maintain this erection around the cathiter tube, I’ll be alright….lol God Bless David

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It’s Thursday now, almost Friday.  The worst is over, Dave.  In a couple more days, no one will even be able to tell when they see you walking down the street.  Hard to believe, but true.  Still thinking of you.  laurel

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Still thinking of you, Dave.  Best wishes.

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IP they just cut the colon in two on both sides of the growth. Then sewed it back together. They fed me throught the veins and sure enough I had a bowel movement…albeit small and soft, but it happened. Also just passing gas was good enough for them

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Dave, GREAT to hear from you.  I’ve been wondering how you’re doing but didn’t want to put a bunch of messages in.  Hope you’re feeling good. How long are you going to be in the hospital?  Best wishes for a complete and speedy recovery. laurel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IP they just cut the colon in two on both sides of the growth. Then sewed it back together. They fed me throught the veins and sure enough I had a bowel movement…albeit small and soft, but it happened. Also just passing gas was good enough for them

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Good news.  Congratulations Dave!  Godspeed, and keep making sine waves with that cath.   -RonL

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was around 4:30 yesteray afternoon when they finally put me to sleep. I awoke in the recovery room at 11:00. Someone forgot to give me pain medication, or  kept it for themselves. They’ve put  me in a nice room though. It’s kinda like a suite, has a couch, three easy chairs, big tv.  The pain was bad I couldn’t enjoy it. It was late at night and the   nurses couldn’t get autorization to give me anything bu a non-narcotic called Tordol. At 3:00am they set up a button to give me 4ml,Demerol every ten minutes. It took till   8:00 am to get semicomfortal. But the news has all been good. The Dr said the colon growth (I’m notcalling it a tumor anymore) did not look malignant but is sill send it to some out fit in Dallas or San Antonio called Labcorp.No detecable cancer in lymph nodes. Since 9 of the biopsies were "peri-neural" invasion, they think it must be microspic and can be killed with radiation alone. They took out the enitire prostate, nerves and all. I’m still pain but if I just keep clicking the button I think I can catch up to it.    Anyway, I’m ver this part and ready to begin real rocovery. Little spacey feeling and hurt so I’mgoing to try to take a nap.  ai do have to wait for colon to move before I get real food. Now if I can just maintain this erection around the cathiter tube, I’ll be alright….lol God Bless David

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"    Anyway, I’m ver this part and ready to begin real rocovery. Little spacey feeling and hurt so I’mgoing to try to take a nap.  ai do have to wait for colon to move before I get real food. Now if I can just maintain this erection around the cathiter tube, I’ll be alright….lol God Bless David

Well, the worst is over.  Get plenty of rest, but do get up and walk, that will get the bowels moving and keep the blood flowing.  Pamper yourself and take it easy as the body heals.  Glad all went well, and hoping things only get better. Dale P

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Sorry for the multiple blank posts, I don’t know what I did, but will try not to do it again!!! DP

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GREAT NEWS DAVE. You are a trooper and I pray for things to keep going well. You are doing great…and if you need more for pain…ask. I got Toradol also bcause it’s non-narcotic and it will not ‘mess’ with your bowels like narcotics may. Keep goin’ Davey. All the best, Ron B. Chicago

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–

But the news has all been good. The Dr said the colon growth (I’m notcalling it a tumor anymore) did not look malignant but is sill send it to some out fit in Dallas or San Antonio called Labcorp.No detecable cancer in lymph nodes.

Great news, Dave.  Concentrating on one cancer is a lot better than two. Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was around 4:30 yesteray afternoon when they finally put me to sleep. I awoke in the recovery room at 11:00. Someone forgot to give me pain medication, or  kept it for themselves. They’ve put  me in a nice room though. It’s kinda like a suite, has a couch, three easy chairs, big tv.  The pain was bad I couldn’t enjoy it. It was late at night and the   nurses couldn’t get autorization to give me anything bu a non-narcotic called Tordol. At 3:00am they set up a button to give me 4ml,Demerol every ten minutes. It took till   8:00 am to get semicomfortal. But the news has all been good. The Dr said the colon growth (I’m notcalling it a tumor anymore) did not look malignant but is sill send it to some out fit in Dallas or San Antonio called Labcorp.No detecable cancer in lymph nodes. Since 9 of the biopsies were "peri-neural" invasion, they think it must be microspic and can be killed with radiation alone. They took out the enitire prostate, nerves and all. I’m still pain but if I just keep clicking the button I think I can catch up to it.     Anyway, I’m ver this part and ready to begin real rocovery. Little spacey feeling and hurt so I’mgoing to try to take a nap.  ai do have to wait for colon to move before I get real food.

My God, man … you’re already where I was on about my third day post-op. I was too groggy to understand beer commercials, let alone type a coherent sentence, a day post-op. OTOH, I wasn’t in significant pain. OTOH, I got essentially no sleep for the first 30-40 hours, either, which may explain a lot. The colon tumor outcome is magnificent. That could have been a far greater threat to your life than your PC, but instead turned out to be no more than a good excuse for being constipated. As for the real food .. that puzzles me. What are you supposed to poop if they don’t feed you poop fodder? They had me on food as soon as they were sure my parts were hooked back up properly and I could keep it down. Did you lose half your  large intestine (hemicolectomy) or just the tumor? I.P.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was around 4:30 yesteray afternoon when they finally put me to sleep. I awoke in the recovery room at 11:00. Someone forgot to give me pain medication, or  kept it for themselves. They’ve put  me in a nice room though. It’s kinda like a suite, has a couch, three easy chairs, big tv.  The pain was bad I couldn’t enjoy it. It was late at night and the   nurses couldn’t get autorization to give me anything bu a non-narcotic called Tordol. At 3:00am they set up a button to give me 4ml,Demerol every ten minutes. It took till   8:00 am to get semicomfortal. But the news has all been good. The Dr said the colon growth (I’m notcalling it a tumor anymore) did not look malignant but is sill send it to some out fit in Dallas or San Antonio called Labcorp.No detecable cancer in lymph nodes. Since 9 of the biopsies were "peri-neural" invasion, they think it must be microspic and can be killed with radiation alone. They took out the enitire prostate, nerves and all. I’m still pain but if I just keep clicking the button I think I can catch up to it.     Anyway, I’m ver this part and ready to begin real rocovery. Little spacey feeling and hurt so I’mgoing to try to take a nap.  ai do have to wait for colon to move before I get real food. Now if I can just maintain this erection around the cathiter tube, I’ll be alright….lol God Bless David

Good job!!  The way my doc (Scardino) put it to me is there are 3 stages: 1.  get rid of the cancer 2.  work on being continent 3.  work on getting erections Sounds like you’ve tackled #1 – now just get yourself up and around again so that you can work at #2 & #3.  Walk as much as you are allowed – it really helps with the healing process. Congrats!! Sandy K.

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It was around 4:30 yesteray afternoon when they finally put me to sleep. I awoke in the recovery room at 11:00. Someone forgot to give me pain medication, or  kept it for themselves. They’ve put  me in a nice room though. It’s kinda like a suite, has a couch, three easy chairs, big tv.  The pain was bad I couldn’t enjoy it. It was late at night and the   nurses couldn’t get autorization to give me anything bu a non-narcotic called Tordol. At 3:00am they set up a button to give me 4ml,Demerol every ten minutes. It took till   8:00 am to get semicomfortal. But the news has all been good. The Dr said the colon growth (I’m notcalling it a tumor anymore) did not look malignant but is sill send it to some out fit in Dallas or San Antonio called Labcorp.No detecable cancer in lymph nodes. Since 9 of the biopsies were "peri-neural" invasion, they think it must be microspic and can be killed with radiation alone. They took out the enitire prostate, nerves and all. I’m still pain but if I just keep clicking the button I think I can catch up to it.     Anyway, I’m ver this part and ready to begin real rocovery. Little spacey feeling and hurt so I’mgoing to try to take a nap.  ai do have to wait for colon to move before I get real food. Now if I can just maintain this erection around the cathiter tube, I’ll be alright….lol God Bless David

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Alan, I forgot to mention that I do have extensive bone mets and also have PCa in my Lypmh nodes. My prostate is still intact as the docs see no need to have it removed.

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Alan, I forgot to mention that I do have extensive bone mets and also have PCa in my Lypmh nodes. My prostate is still intact as the docs see no need to have it removed.

Well, in that case, maybe you should pursue this. I suggest that you give the company a call.  Ask them if there are any trials going on that are still enrolling new patients.  If so, ask them about how to participate and where you can find the published results so far. In some cases, your local doctor might be able to participate in the trial – administering the medication and performing the follow up – if he’s willing to do it and is accepted by the researchers.  However, I understand his reluctance to get involved in a trial of something that he doesn’t know anything about.  I respect a guy who knows his limitations and tries not to exceed them.  But there might be someplace else not to far away from you that is participating in a trial. I’m sorry to hear about the bone mets.  I presume you’re on HT now.  I hope it keeps working for you and that you are able to benefit from this new drug, or one of the other new drugs that are in trials. Good luck.     Alan

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Greetings all, Does anyone have any experience with Quadramet ( Samarium). I have been in a debate with a local radiation oncologist regarding its effectiveness. Understanding that it is used primarily for treating bone pain, a recent phase II study has shown that when used in conjuction with chemotherapy (Taxotere) it has shown to reduce PSA levels by as much as 75%. My Radiation Onco is unwilling to treat me with Quadramet because I have no bone pain, and my PSA is down to 5.89. Here is the link to the news release. http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=97538&p=irol-newsArticle_…

I have never heard of this.  Why not call the company that makes it and ask if it’s appropriate for someone without bone mets? My guess is that they will say no.  When an investigational drug is approved for clinical trials, it is only approved for specific applications and may not be used for purposes that the FDA has not approved.  This sounds like it could be a bad thing, but it’s really a good thing in most cases and protects people against possibly severe side effects and possible loss of opportunity to try other treatments, in order to get some unproven benefit. The fact that the drug lowers PSA in some patients who have bone mets doesn’t at all prove that it will lower PSA in patients without bone mets.  It might very well be that the drug only attacks prostate tumor cells that reside in bones. Your current doctor is probably right in not being willing to use it, even assuming he can legally do so. My advice is, don’t focus on one therapy and then chase after a doctor who will give it to you.  There are a lot of conventional therapies, and a lot of investigational ones.  Do some research on all of them. Look for example at the National Cancer Institute’s website on clinical trials (http://cancer.gov) and at (http://clinicaltrials.gov). Best of luck.     Alan

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Greetings all, Does anyone have any experience with Quadramet ( Samarium). I have been in a debate with a local radiation oncologist regarding its effectiveness. Understanding that it is used primarily for treating bone pain, a recent phase II study has shown that when used in conjuction with chemotherapy (Taxotere) it has shown to reduce PSA levels by as much as 75%. My Radiation Onco is unwilling to treat me with Quadramet because I have no bone pain, and my PSA is down to 5.89. Here is the link to the news release. http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=97538&p=irol-newsArticle_…

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Good question.  This would be almost (but not quite) like asking for a tonsil transplant.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was going to get a discussion going about the advantages of getting a prostate from cadaver but  the thought just seems too morbid. Why would you want a prostate transplant?

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" figured that David was talking about having a healthy prostate, full urinary and sexual function and being cancer free." Ron, if you think about how that surgery might be done, you still have to remove the cancerous gland, and they would probably take the vas deferens and seminal vesicles as they do now to be safe, so it would have the same effects as RP on erectile function. You just might have some ejaculate. Bill Denton RP 2/12/02 PSA .67 Memphis

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Dave asked about a prostate transplant. Dave, you are very sincere so don’t ever worry about topics being too morbid…the guys here are amazing and I’d trust them to be able to deal with ANYTHING. Their response about WHY you’d want this is valid. If I may be so bold as to comment on your thought (and tell me if I’m way off base)… I figured that David was talking about having a healthy prostate, full urinary and sexual function and being cancer free. Sorta like a guy who didn’t have a problem to begin with. It’s a fine thought…but doesn’t seem possible. Best of health, Ron B. Chicago

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I was going to get a discussion going about the advantages of getting a prostate from cadaver but  the thought just seems too morbid.

  Do I get the rest of John Holmes equipment too? I may just go for it. — JK Sinrod www.sinrodstudios.com www.MyConeyIslandMemories

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I was going to get a discussion going about the advantages of getting a prostate from cadaver but  the thought just seems too morbid.

Why not? I do not think much would shake this group up when it comes to topics like this. I think, do not know for sure, that the opposite operation would be much more challenging to do successfully. More variables, and the possible rejection by the body to contend with. Then we’d have to get it taken out again if it did not work! Once was enough for me. Who knows, maybe one day. B.A.

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Is it Walsh who says the prostate causes more trouble than it’s worth, or something like that?  One was enough for me.  I know dogs have prostates but there are lots of successful species that do fine without the damned thing.  Take me off the transplant list. Dave Perry

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I was going to get a discussion going about the advantages of getting a prostate from cadaver but  the thought just seems too morbid.

Uhh, why would anyone WANT one? I.P.

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I was going to get a discussion going about the advantages of getting a prostate from cadaver but  the thought just seems too morbid.

Why would you want a prostate transplant?

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I was going to get a discussion going about the advantages of getting a prostate from cadaver but  the thought just seems too morbid.

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As you may remember, Jim completed 35 salvage IMRT radiation treatments in the beginning of October.  BTW-he did very well with almost no side effects.  His first PSA after that was taken right at the end of RT and came back at undetectable. I guess what I want to know is  this.  Should they absolutely stay at undetectable, or is it possible to have  some PSA show up and not really mean anything?  I was surprised when the PSA was undetectable so quickly and now I feel like we’re set up for real upset if they don’t stay that way. I thought radiation gave a slower result. Thanks, Linda

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Linda, The use of radiation as a curative treatment will usually result, as I understand it, in a quick drop that tends to level out over time while cancer cells are self-destructing.  Although 0.06 is almost to the bottom of the readable scale, it might even go lower. The fact that Jim’s went to the cellar, I cannot help but to believe that all his cancer, or almost all his cancer, was contained in a small area on his prostate bed. Let’s face it; you’re going to be terribly disappointed if his PSA starts to rise (three times).  But, the fact is, you have really good reason to hope that he was cured with his one-two punch.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As you may remember, Jim completed 35 salvage IMRT radiation treatments in the beginning of October.  BTW-he did very well with almost no side effects.  His first PSA after that was taken right at the end of RT and came back at undetectable. I guess what I want to know is  this.  Should they absolutely stay at undetectable, or is it possible to have  some PSA show up and not really mean anything?  I was surprised when the PSA was undetectable so quickly and now I feel like we’re set up for real upset if they don’t stay that way. I thought radiation gave a slower result. Thanks, Linda

– Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

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I realize that the psa can continue to rise because of many reasons, my question is really, does the psa rise after a biopsy, due to the trauma created by the biopsy procedure. Barring any increase in the psa due to pca, or infection. When will the psa return ti its pre-biopsy level ??????

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The prostate is a very sensitive organ. Even the "normal" finger check will raise PSA and therefore one must wait 2 – 3 months after biopsy before checking PSA again RR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I realize that the psa can continue to rise because of many reasons, my question is really, does the psa rise after a biopsy, due to the trauma created by the biopsy procedure. Barring any increase in the psa due to pca, or infection. When will the psa return ti its pre-biopsy level ??????

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How long after a prostate biopsy does it take for the psa to return to its pre-biopsy level, four weeks after my biopsy, the psa is still markedly elevated ????

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: How long after a prostate biopsy does it take for the psa to return to : its pre-biopsy level, four weeks after my biopsy, the psa is still : markedly elevated ???? : I’m unsure about your question, Bob; a biopsy is done for the purpose of detecting cancer cells, one of the tests to determine the condition responsible for an elevated PSA.  In itself, it shouldn’t do anything, favorable or unfavorable, to the PSA number.  One’s PSA could be expected to rise, I suppose, after a biopsy simply as a factor of time, and have nothing to do with whether or not a biopsy was performed. Or have I mistaken your question entirely? Ken Bland

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Bob…The old adage is 6 weeks.  More recent studies suggest that PSA returns to baseline values within 2-4 weeks after TRUS biopsy.  I’m sure the range is highly dependent upon the individual and the actual procedure…Ron

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J’apprends par les profanes que les AMERICAINS ont d

test–my levels continue to go down, even though at six months after radiation there is usually a surge (I think–or is it 18 months?.  This could very well mean that, as my oncologist. thought was very possible in my case, the cancer has been completely obliterated and will not, has not spread.   So I can really forget about it for a while.  What a relief. Now the public confession:  I feel so ashamed of myself.  In spite of all my bold words about facing reality etc., for the past month, probably in anticipation of the six-month post RT PSA test, I have been really edgy. (And maybe, too, because my energy level is still down.)  I haven’t been entirely away from this ng  not that I submit many replies–because others do so much better and far more knowledgeably than I can), just an occasional lurking, but basically I found that I couldn’t stand thinking about PCa any more.  Or even not eating the foods I really want to and am used to and wondering if it really  matters and do I really need all this curry and whether I’ll turn yellow from it. Hard on my wife and a very bad example to one and all.  After such a down month, I don’t think I deserve the good news I have had today.  There, I’ve said it, and it feels good to have done so. (And egotistic.) — July 2005 DX PCa, age 75;  PSA 26.5 Gleason 7 (4+3) Stage T2a   No evidence that the cancer was not confined to a single nodule in the prostate. August 2004  ADT First injection (2 drugs-Lupron + ?) Dec 2004  ADT Second injection PSA 4 April 2005  PSA 2.6 May 2005  HBRT  33 treatments August 2005  Six weeks after radiation  PSA 2.9, went up instead of down, possibly because the effects of ADT are still there and the RT hasn’t fully kicked in, and a somewhat elevated PSA is normal for me because of my BPH October 2005  PSA 2.63. February 2006 PSA 1.49

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blood : test–my levels continue to go down, even though at six months after : radiation there is usually a surge (I think–or is it 18 months?.  This : could very well mean that, as my oncologist. thought was very possible in my : case, the cancer has been completely obliterated and will not, has not : spread.   So I can really forget about it for a while.  What a relief. <Reminder snipped What great news!  I am very happy for you.  I didn’t think there was anyone else of my age and with much the same PSA reports and treatments here in this group.  I will be 76 in another month and was diagnosed with PCa when I was 71. My initial PSA was a smidgen higher than yours but the Gleason score was the same.  Surgery was followed by Lupron (x2) and finally by radiation, then with undetectable PSA readings for nearly four years.  Needless to say, both my oncologist-surgeon and I are quite pleased. May goodness and mercy follow you for the rest of your life. Ken Bland

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Great news Stavros!  I hope the PSA never comes up again. My own PSA has bounced around a lot for two years after radiation, but at the two year mark, it reached a new low value and I’m hoping it stays there. Now the public confession:  I feel so ashamed of myself.  In spite of all my bold words about facing reality etc., for the past month, probably in anticipation of the six-month post RT PSA test, I have been really edgy.

Your confession proves beyond a doubt that you are a normal human being. I think that fear of death is something that we conquer one day at a time.  When I am afraid I go over all the reasons in my mind why I shouldn’t be afraid to die.  It is a natural end of life. It is something we all know from childhood on.  If I allow the fear of death to keep me from enjoying life – then I’m dying now, before it is time.  And after I’m dead all the great things that I’ve known will continue to exist: great music will continue to be played, the people I love will continue to live, the progress of knowledge and of the human spirit will continue to develop, the wonderful parts of our lives are just as wonderful for having existed whether we live on or not.  The task we are given to live our lives with some grace and some optimism is really not beyond our capability. I tell myself all those things and I really do feel better.  I really can face the future with more courage and equanimity. But I have learned that, in spite of all that, there’s no guarantee I won’t wake up the next morning, or in the middle of the next night, with a renewed sense of dread. It happens.  Despair overtakes us from time to time.  We’re only human after all.  So we have to renew our courage and our insight each day. Judging from your postings to this group, I think you’ve done a pretty good job of that.     Alan

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That’s great, Stravros! — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – blood test–my levels continue to go down, even though at six months after radiation there is usually a surge (I think–or is it 18 months?.  This could very well mean that, as my oncologist. thought was very possible in my case, the cancer has been completely obliterated and will not, has not spread.   So I can really forget about it for a while.  What a relief. Now the public confession:  I feel so ashamed of myself.  In spite of all my bold words about facing reality etc., for the past month, probably in anticipation of the six-month post RT PSA test, I have been really edgy. (And maybe, too, because my energy level is still down.)  I haven’t been entirely away from this ng  not that I submit many replies–because others do so much better and far more knowledgeably than I can), just an occasional lurking, but basically I found that I couldn’t stand thinking about PCa any more.  Or even not eating the foods I really want to and am used to and wondering if it really  matters and do I really need all this curry and whether I’ll turn yellow from it. Hard on my wife and a very bad example to one and all.  After such a down month, I don’t think I deserve the good news I have had today.  There, I’ve said it, and it feels good to have done so. (And egotistic.) — July 2005 DX PCa, age 75;  PSA 26.5 Gleason 7 (4+3) Stage T2a  No evidence that the cancer was not confined to a single nodule in the prostate. August 2004  ADT First injection (2 drugs-Lupron + ?) Dec 2004  ADT Second injection PSA 4 April 2005  PSA 2.6 May 2005  HBRT  33 treatments August 2005  Six weeks after radiation  PSA 2.9, went up instead of down, possibly because the effects of ADT are still there and the RT hasn’t fully kicked in, and a somewhat elevated PSA is normal for me because of my BPH October 2005  PSA 2.63. February 2006 PSA 1.49

Response:

Thanks, Alan, for your kind words.  I should say, I suppose, that the fear of death has not at all been a problem for me, at least not since my youth (and except for worrying about leaving my wife without me).  What I was "confessing" was my  shameful tiredness of dealing with PCa and thinking about it and possible future treatments, with attendant side-effects,especially fatigue, and edginess about upcoming tests–the whole bag.  And especially when I see how the members of this ng cope so well, yes I am ashamed of myself for being so weak and for being so unworthy of the blessings that God has given me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great news Stavros!  I hope the PSA never comes up again. My own PSA has bounced around a lot for two years after radiation, but at the two year mark, it reached a new low value and I’m hoping it stays there. Now the public confession:  I feel so ashamed of myself.  In spite of all my bold words about facing reality etc., for the past month, probably in anticipation of the six-month post RT PSA test, I have been really edgy. Your confession proves beyond a doubt that you are a normal human being. I think that fear of death is something that we conquer one day at a time.  When I am afraid I go over all the reasons in my mind why I shouldn’t be afraid to die.  It is a natural end of life. It is something we all know from childhood on.  If I allow the fear of death to keep me from enjoying life – then I’m dying now, before it is time.  And after I’m dead all the great things that I’ve known will continue to exist: great music will continue to be played, the people I love will continue to live, the progress of knowledge and of the human spirit will continue to develop, the wonderful parts of our lives are just as wonderful for having existed whether we live on or not.  The task we are given to live our lives with some grace and some optimism is really not beyond our capability. I tell myself all those things and I really do feel better.  I really can face the future with more courage and equanimity. But I have learned that, in spite of all that, there’s no guarantee I won’t wake up the next morning, or in the middle of the next night, with a renewed sense of dread. It happens.  Despair overtakes us from time to time.  We’re only human after all.  So we have to renew our courage and our insight each day. Judging from your postings to this group, I think you’ve done a pretty good job of that.    Alan

Response:

Thanks, IP–and all the rest of you.  I am really following your advice on this–I just like to grumble, I guess–and have also started some time ago an exercise program, which is working, though so very slowly.  I have learned that it is essential for me to build up very slowly and not get ambitious and overdo things or I get set right back where I started.  A little goes a long way for me right now, with small, but steady increases. .Took me some time to learn that, but having done so, my energy levels are definitely improving.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Stavros" wrote (And maybe, too, because my energy level is still down. The cure for low energy level is expending more energy. i.e., Unless there’s some other health thing that precludes exercise, the best path to greater energy both short term (the next day) and long term (the rest of your life) is heavy exercise, including play, the gym, or ditchdigging. You have up to three things that sap one’s energy: cancer, low T, and radation. Exercise should improve your vigor with any of those, but none of them will allow a LOT of exercise. Balancing rest and exercise is probably a challenging project. (You can be checked for lingering low T, of course).  I couldn’t stand … not eating the foods I really want and am used to and wondering if it really  matters and do I really need all this curry and whether I’ll turn yellow from it. Eating to fight our existing cancer probably matters most to your psyche, since essentally none of these foods or supplements has been PROVEN to help. Some have never been tested, some failed their tests, some had neutral outcomes, maybe one or two showed enough promise to warrant further testing. One can 1) ignore supplementation because it’s unproven, 2) live on supplements and special foods in case they help, or 3) anything in between. The only answer I feel fairly strongly about is to do what you want, because nobody knows for sure (except about some that failed pretty solid tests. No, I don’t recall which those may be.) whether any of it helps. 1. That seems short-sighted. If something tastes good, is not suspected of harming us, isn’t expensive, and isn’t ridiculed by the medical community, what the heck? 2. The guy whose pages of 16-hours-a-day of weighing and grinding and blending and staggering and timing (to the minute with some concoctions) an incredible list of chemicals and jungle growths has chosen to abandon LIFE in the hopes he may add a week or 30 years — of weighing and grinding and blending and staggering and timing — to his time on the planet. I hope he finds time to catch a movie somewhere in there. OTOH … he is solving his psychological problem, and maybe that’s his top priority. 3. I LIKE marinara sauce, so I put various versions of spaghetti sauce on some of my food; it’s good on amost anything. I also like stewed tomatoes, so there’s more lycopene. And curry and cinnamon good, too, so I put those on my food when appropriate.  Whether the heavy salt in the tomato items hurts us more than the lycopene helps — if it does — I don’t know. Beyond that, I have a life to live, and have better things to do with my precious time than devote much of it to grasping at straws. Hell, if a mainstream PC tx  like *A*D*T*  adds only months to our lives, what should we really expect from crapola off the internet? If the foods you want are sat fats, heavy odds say you’re just adding a significant threat to your longevity and vigor if you succumb to them. In the slim chance that I may hold my cancers at bay for another decade, there’s no way I’m compromising my health just for some friggin’ bacon. In fact, I’m eating even healthier now (healthier desserts, primarily) and recently began something I’ve never done before: busting my ASS at the gym for 2-4 hours three days a week. I’m going to go down feeling like a 30-something athlete, not live the rest of my life feeling 60-something. (I can out-athlete the majority of 20-somethings right now, including most of the weekend warriors I play among all summer.) I don’t even WANT many of the foods I gave up 20 years ago … but I must admit that I will dive right back into some of them the minute Harvard, Stanford, the Mayo Clinic, Michael Jacobsen, and most of the other 100 top medical sources agree that  Atkins was right (or when I’m suffering with advanced cancer). So far not one of them does. I would be PISSED if I went back on that crap and died of a heart attack, cancer-free, a decade from now. My wife and I eat like (smart) KINGS on very low sat- and trans-fat foods; I don’t NEED no steenkin’ lard. I.P.

Response:

"Stavros" wrote (And maybe, too, because my energy level is still down.

The cure for low energy level is expending more energy. i.e., Unless there’s some other health thing that precludes exercise, the best path to greater energy both short term (the next day) and long term (the rest of your life) is heavy exercise, including play, the gym, or ditchdigging. You have up to three things that sap one’s energy: cancer, low T, and radation. Exercise should improve your vigor with any of those, but none of them will allow a LOT of exercise. Balancing rest and exercise is probably a challenging project. (You can be checked for lingering low T, of course).  I couldn’t stand … not eating the foods I really want and am used to and wondering if it really  matters and do I really need all this curry and whether I’ll turn yellow from it.

Eating to fight our existing cancer probably matters most to your psyche, since essentally none of these foods or supplements has been PROVEN to help. Some have never been tested, some failed their tests, some had neutral outcomes, maybe one or two showed enough promise to warrant further testing. One can 1) ignore supplementation because it’s unproven, 2) live on supplements and special foods in case they help, or 3) anything in between. The only answer I feel fairly strongly about is to do what you want, because nobody knows for sure (except about some that failed pretty solid tests. No, I don’t recall which those may be.) whether any of it helps. 1. That seems short-sighted. If something tastes good, is not suspected of harming us, isn’t expensive, and isn’t ridiculed by the medical community, what the heck? 2. The guy whose pages of 16-hours-a-day of weighing and grinding and blending and staggering and timing (to the minute with some concoctions) an incredible list of chemicals and jungle growths has chosen to abandon LIFE in the hopes he may add a week or 30 years — of weighing and grinding and blending and staggering and timing — to his time on the planet. I hope he finds time to catch a movie somewhere in there. OTOH … he is solving his psychological problem, and maybe that’s his top priority. 3. I LIKE marinara sauce, so I put various versions of spaghetti sauce on some of my food; it’s good on amost anything. I also like stewed tomatoes, so there’s more lycopene. And curry and cinnamon good, too, so I put those on my food when appropriate.  Whether the heavy salt in the tomato items hurts us more than the lycopene helps — if it does — I don’t know. Beyond that, I have a life to live, and have better things to do with my precious time than devote much of it to grasping at straws. Hell, if a mainstream PC tx  like *A*D*T*  adds only months to our lives, what should we really expect from crapola off the internet? If the foods you want are sat fats, heavy odds say you’re just adding a significant threat to your longevity and vigor if you succumb to them. In the slim chance that I may hold my cancers at bay for another decade, there’s no way I’m compromising my health just for some friggin’ bacon. In fact, I’m eating even healthier now (healthier desserts, primarily) and recently began something I’ve never done before: busting my ASS at the gym for 2-4 hours three days a week. I’m going to go down feeling like a 30-something athlete, not live the rest of my life feeling 60-something. (I can out-athlete the majority of 20-somethings right now, including most of the weekend warriors I play among all summer.) I don’t even WANT many of the foods I gave up 20 years ago … but I must admit that I will dive right back into some of them the minute Harvard, Stanford, the Mayo Clinic, Michael Jacobsen, and most of the other 100 top medical sources agree that  Atkins was right (or when I’m suffering with advanced cancer). So far not one of them does. I would be PISSED if I went back on that crap and died of a heart attack, cancer-free, a decade from now. My wife and I eat like (smart) KINGS on very low sat- and trans-fat foods; I don’t NEED no steenkin’ lard. I.P.

Response:

I’d be interested in comments, good or bad, from anyone who had an RP with Dr. James Eastham at MSK, since I’ll be meeting with him soon. If anyone wishes to communicate privately, please remove the prostate from the following address: Many thanks,  RonL

Response:

I’d be interested in comments, good or bad, from anyone who had an RP with Dr. James Eastham at MSK, since I’ll be meeting with him soon. If anyone wishes to communicate privately, please remove the prostate from the following address: Many thanks,  RonL

I don’t know anything about Dr. Eastham, but I do know that Memorial Sloan-Kettering is one of the most prestigious cancer treatment centers in the country.  I would imagine that they have their pick of applicants and would hope that all the ones they choose are very good.     Alan

Response:

I found the following website of the Internet Pathology Laboratory for Medical Education, of the Florida State University College of Medicine.  It’s got 10 year survival rates for various disease stages (only those with "stage A1, Incidental, <5% of volume" have a survival rate 50%, though presumably this is without treatment.) It also has numerous pathology slides for normal prostates, and those with prostatitis, BPH, and various stages of cancer. http://www-medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/PROSTATE/PROSTATE.html

Response:

It’s got 10 year survival rates for various disease stages (only those with "stage A1, Incidental, <5% of volume" have a survival rate 50%, though presumably this is without treatment.)

Without treatment….presumably? It better be better than that after treatment! Geeezz!!! B.A.

Response:

Have any of you guys suffered lower back, pelvic area or thigh pain attributable to Zoladex and/or Casodex?

Response:

I have pain in the areas you mentioned but it is from the cancer, not from the meds. I had a load of other problems from the meds.  They actually lessoned the pain.  Before i started treatment the pain was nearly unbearable. i’m also getting Zometa to help restore the bone that has been damaged. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Have any of you guys suffered lower back, pelvic area or thigh pain attributable to Zoladex and/or Casodex?

Response:

Have any of you guys suffered lower back, pelvic area or thigh pain attributable to Zoladex and/or Casodex?

My GP (PCP) got me to have a series of lumbar and leg X-Rays when I complained of odd pains to my left leg from the thigh to the ankle and particular chronic bad pain to my L knee. I was found to have mild narrowing of L4/5 vertebral disc space plus anterior subluxation of L4 to L5, which suggests intermittent spinal chord compression causing Sciatic nerve related pain. There was also some suspect cartilage damage to the L knee, plus overall DJD (Osteo-Arthritis) to lower spine and both knees. I’m having an Arthroscopy done on the L knee next week to clean out any damaged cartilage segments. Nobody will admit to a cause or connection to my PCa treatment. 18 mths ADT (Lucrin) plus EBRT x 23 and HDRB x 3.  (I was never given a Bone Mineral Density test at the beginning because there was "no evidence of weak bones or recent fractures, consistent with Osteo-Porosis.") My take on all this is, that the ADT has caused general weakening of the bones and connective tissue, plus previous DJD problems to become worse, plus my spine and L knee cartilage were disturbed by rough handling during the HDRB treatment period of 48hrs immobilisation by the Epidural. I cannot definitively PROVE any of this and they "ain’t sayin". Any admission on their part may cause me to sue them! — Reader to complete… — Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake: — Regards — CC

Response:

Have any of you guys suffered lower back, pelvic area or thigh pain attributable to Zoladex and/or Casodex?

I know that "joint pain" is a known and very common side effect of Lupron.  I wouldn’t be surprised if Zoladex has similar side effects.  Unfortunately, many doctors who prescribe these drugs don’t warn their patients about these common side effects or take any action to prevent them. Some doctors don’t even know about them.  They haven’t even read the labels on the drugs they prescribe. I don’t know what the best thing for joint pain is.  In my case, I experienced joint pain in fingers and toes starting about 8 months after starting Lupron – even though I had already stopped.  After trying anti-inflammatory drugs with no noticeable effect, I began doing very frequent, regular exercises.  I started with easy exercises that mainly involved movement and flexibility, gradually building up to strength building exercises.  I did huge numbers of them. Within a few months my pain was completely gone and is still gone.  I still do the exercises, but no longer in huge numbers. Your mileage may vary.     Alan

Response:

Nobody will admit to a cause or connection to my PCa treatment. 18 mths ADT (Lucrin) plus EBRT x 23 and HDRB x 3. (I was never given a Bone Mineral Density test at the beginning because there was "no evidence of weak bones or recent fractures, consistent with Osteo-Porosis.")

I, also, did not get a BMD Baseline (I did my own Dexa but no qCT was ordered) before injecting Lupron, I consider it a serious oversight on the uro’s part. My take on all this is, that the ADT has caused general weakening of the bones and connective tissue, plus previous DJD problems to become worse, plus my spine and L knee cartilage were disturbed by rough handling during the HDRB treatment period of 48hrs immobilisation by the Epidural.

Clarence, please state what was the volume/weight of your prostate at start of HDRB?  Mine was 23g at biopsy 4 months ago (start of Lupron) and was told by the RadOnc that 23 was too small for HDRB.  He’s the only source of this assertion (that a prostate can be too small for HDRB) that I can find.

Response:

… Clarence, please state what was the volume/weight of your prostate at start of HDRB?  Mine was 23g at biopsy 4 months ago (start of Lupron) and was told by the RadOnc that 23 was too small for HDRB.  He’s the only source of this assertion (that a prostate can be too small for HDRB) that I can find. …

Brian, I was in a clinical trial of magnetic resonance imaging guided HDRB.  I had Lupron before the radiation.  I was told before any treatment that my prostate was 40 grams.  When it came time for the HDRB, the rad onc told me my prostate was tiny (Lupron causes it to shrink.)  But they apparently had no problem doing the HDRB – though they were using MRI instead of ultrasound to guide the placement of the catheters – which might have been a factor. Does the rad onc say no brachytherapy at all, or just no High Dose Rate Brachytherapy? Is he a guy that specializes in prostates, or does he mainly do other types of cancer?  It’s possible that he feels that the 23 gram size is not within his limits of skill – in which case you sure don’t want him to do it.  But it’s possible someone else can.  You might want to check – hopefully with someone who won’t just say, "Yes I can do it" because he wants your business and doesn’t care if he hurts you in the process. However external beam radiation is also an excellent option. it is my understanding that EBRT and brachytherapy get very similar results. Good luck.     Alan

Response:

<snip Clarence, please state what was the volume/weight of your prostate at start of HDRB?  Mine was 23g at biopsy 4 months ago (start of Lupron) and was told by the RadOnc that 23 was too small for HDRB.  He’s the only source of this assertion (that a prostate can be too small for HDRB) that I can find.

72 cc at entry, shrunk to 65 cc after 3 mths ADT. But I also went into PCa treatment with BPH. ergo I cannot advise you on how "small" a gland should be. The median for HDRB is around 36 cc. Incidentally, 1cc = 1 gram, dependent on the Labs take on it. — Reader to complete… — Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake: — Regards — CC

Response:

Aha!  I’ve had 2 ruptured discs for many years, been on Zoladex and Casodex for almost a year and had 25 sessions of EBRT during July and August of this year and then 3 sessions  of HDR brachytherapy on August 29 and 30.  BTW – even Astra-Zeneca’s website refers to back pain and bone pain for each of the 2 drugs. I had bone density and bone scans (for mets) in February when I first started on the meds and had another bone scan in July – fortunately negative.

Response:

My experience is essentially the same.  L4/L5 rupture in 1982.  It’s been sore to painful for 23 years, but no difference after Lupron.  Had dexoscan six months ago and no problems there, though I am taking Fozomax and calcium. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aha!  I’ve had 2 ruptured discs for many years, been on Zoladex and Casodex for almost a year and had 25 sessions of EBRT during July and August of this year and then 3 sessions  of HDR brachytherapy on August 29 and 30.  BTW – even Astra-Zeneca’s website refers to back pain and bone pain for each of the 2 drugs. I had bone density and bone scans (for mets) in February when I first started on the meds and had another bone scan in July – fortunately negative.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Clarence, please state what was the volume/weight of your prostate at start of HDRB?  Mine was 23g at biopsy 4 months ago (start of Lupron) and was told by the RadOnc that 23 was too small for HDRB.  He’s the only source of this assertion (that a prostate can be too small for HDRB) that I can find. … Brian, I was in a clinical trial of magnetic resonance imaging guided HDRB.  I had Lupron before the radiation.  I was told before any treatment that my prostate was 40 grams.  When it came time for the HDRB, the rad onc told me my prostate was tiny (Lupron causes it to shrink.)  

No number on the size? I don’t know my size either, was 23 grams (and yes the lupron has made the prostate tiny and soft, too.) But they apparently had no problem doing the HDRB – though they were using MRI instead of ultrasound to guide the placement of the catheters – which might have been a factor. Does the rad onc say no brachytherapy at all, or just no High Dose Rate Brachytherapy?

HDR: DSQ because prostate was too small LDR: DSQ because of Gleason 3+4-7 I think he was disingenuating me towards IMRT. Is he a guy that specializes in prostates, or does he mainly do other types of cancer?  It’s possible that he feels that the 23 gram size is not within his limits of skill – in which case you sure don’t want him to do it.  But it’s possible someone else can.  You might want to check – hopefully with someone who won’t just say, "Yes I can do it" because he wants your business and doesn’t care if he hurts you in the process.

So who is the best pro closest to Philadelphia?  Yes, we’re minimizing two variable in a function. However external beam radiation is also an excellent option. it is my understanding that EBRT and brachytherapy get very similar results.

and that SI/HDR/EBRT get the best, which has to do with why I prefer that sequence.

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