Talk Cancer

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. I think I see what’s going on now (please tell me if I’m wrong): – The study shows the increased incidence of this cancer in urban cats. – Somewhere in the article the author stated "Tonsillar squamous cell     carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in     rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". Based on this, you have decided that – "Environmental pollutants" must mean outdoor pollutants only.

Yes. Because the authors made the reference to urban and rural areas and not indoor and outdoor, a reasonable conclusion is the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants. – There IS a link between outdoor environmental pollutants & this cancer. Sorry, but drawing conclusions like this without evidence is bad science, pain & simple.

That’s the conclusion you have drawn for yourself.  That’s fine with me… Whatever turns you on.  It doesn’t change my position. As far as I’m concerned, by "rural" and "urban", the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white. Master, I am sorry for assuming that this  worthless little grashopper might know something about science & logic.  But I am now suitably humbled (despite my PhD) & will gladly sit at your feet so I may grow as wise as you.  Please continue to drop your pearls before this unworthy swine.

Jeeze, I didn’t know you had such a low opinion of yourself (despite your PhD).  I never thought of you as or called you a "little grashopper" or "unworthy swine".  But its nice to see you’ve grown a usenet skin. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? "Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e.,

swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants. Actually, I would think that "tonsillar" means relating to the tonsils. Furthermore, there are airborne carcinogens that cause cancer in places other than the respiratory system.  E.g.: – Airborne PCBs can cause skin cancer. – Airborne asbetos can cause peritoneal cancer. – Cigarette smoke can cause tonsillar cancer.

All true. However, to me, the term "toxins" or "pollutants", when referring to animals, usually means ingested unless otherwise stated. You continue to draw unwarranted conclusions.

I don’t think so.  If this bothers you so much (with apparently it does), why not call the authors and ask them if they were referring to indoor or outdoor, inhaled or ingested environmental pollutants.  I’m perfectly satisfied they were referring to outdoor, and probably ingested, environmental pollutants. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing. I never doubted this for a second.

Then you should also not doubt I will not my position.  As far as I’m concerned,"rural" and "urban", in this instance implies outdoor environmental pollutants. On the other hand, I try not to close my mind & am always willing to rethink issues in the face of logic & evidence. Unfortunately, I have seen neither of these so far.

Sounds like a personal problem.  Maybe you don’t want to see for reasons known only to you.  Perhaps you’re an outdoor proponent and consider my interpretation as being against your beliefs. Who knows? Because the authors made the reference to urban and rural areas and not indoor and outdoor environments, a reasonable conclusion is the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants.  This is how I interpret their statement.  You’re welcome to interpret their statement anyway you like.  I explained numerous times how I reached my conclusion – you don’t have to agree with or accept it – I really don’t care either way.  You have your intpretation, and I have mine. That’s it. A draw. A stalemate. An impasse. A cul-de-sac.

Response:

I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands.

I think I see what’s going on now (please tell me if I’m wrong): – The study shows the increased incidence of this cancer in urban cats. – Somewhere in the article the author stated "Tonsillar squamous cell     carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in     rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". Based on this, you have decided that – "Environmental pollutants" must mean outdoor pollutants only. – There IS a link between outdoor environmental pollutants & this cancer. Sorry, but drawing conclusions like this without evidence is bad science, pain & simple.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white.

Master, I am sorry for assuming that this  worthless little grashopper might know something about science & logic.  But I am now suitably humbled (despite my PhD) & will gladly sit at your feet so I may grow as wise as you.  Please continue to drop your pearls before this unworthy swine. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? "Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e., swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants.

Actually, I would think that "tonsillar" means relating to the tonsils. Furthermore, there are airborne carcinogens that cause cancer in places other than the respiratory system.  E.g.: – Airborne PCBs can cause skin cancer. – Airborne asbetos can cause peritoneal cancer. – Cigarette smoke can cause tonsillar cancer. You continue to draw unwarranted conclusions. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing.

I never doubted this for a second.  On the other hand, I try not to close my mind & am always willing to rethink issues in the face of logic & evidence. Unfortunately, I have seen neither of these so far. Phil

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk. If you believe this, then you should advocate that cats NOT be kept in urban environments.  The only clear conclusion one can draw from your quoted statement is that cats are at a MUCH greater risk for tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban environments.

That’s the conclusion you draw, not me.  You can draw any conclusion you like.  I interpret the authors statement to refer to outdoor risks.  My statement stands. Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer. So, let me understand … the article compares urban & rural areas, but does not even mention indoor vs outdoor differences.  And this leads to you believe that there IS a conclusion to be drawn about indoor vs outdoor differences.  I know of no logic system that supports such a conclusion.

I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.) I’m willing to concede this.  What you don’t seem to understand is that this does not allow you to draw your conclusion in a manner that science recognizes.

No, its just not a conclusion that *you* agree with. You have that right. I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. You are, of course, free to invent your own logic & draw what conclusions you will.

And you are free to invent your own logic and intpretation and draw whatever conclusion that makes you happy.  Logic dictates "environmental pollutants", in this instance, refers to *outdoor* "environmental pollutants" since indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  Again, my statement stands.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy.

You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne?

"Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e., swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants. You could end all of the debate quickly by showing us the logical steps that allow you to draw this conclusion.

I already have.  You don’t have to accept it, it really doesn’t matter to me. It shouldn’t require more than a few bullet points.  I await your response eagerly & will be happy to publicly withdraw my objections & admit I was incorrect if you can produce this.

You don’t have to withdraw anything.  I’m not asking you to admit you were incorrect.  You merely interpreted the meaning differently than I. Since indoor environmental pollutants would be similar, the *only* logical conclusion is the authors were referring to outdoor environmental pollutants. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing. Phil

Response:

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk.

If you believe this, then you should advocate that cats NOT be kept in urban environments.  The only clear conclusion one can draw from your quoted statement is that cats are at a MUCH greater risk for tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban environments. Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer.

So, let me understand … the article compares urban & rural areas, but does not even mention indoor vs outdoor differences.  And this leads to you believe that there IS a conclusion to be drawn about indoor vs outdoor differences.  I know of no logic system that supports such a conclusion. Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.)

I’m willing to concede this.  What you don’t seem to understand is that this does not allow you to draw your conclusion in a manner that science recognizes.  You are, of course, free to invent your own logic & draw what conclusions you will.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case.

Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? You could end all of the debate quickly by showing us the logical steps that allow you to draw this conclusion.  It shouldn’t require more than a few bullet points.  I await your response eagerly & will be happy to publicly withdraw my objections & admit I was incorrect if you can produce this. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" This statement indicates that the author could find no link between environmental pollutants & this cancer, but that he/she believes there is such a link.  Let’s assume the author is correct.

If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado I appreciate the reference.  I don’t have easy access to this journal. But since you cited it, can I presume that is shows the other 2 items needed to draw your conclusion? b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). Note that the conclusion in (b) is not at all clear.  It is very possible that the cancer is caused by cleaning agents & that indoor cats are therefore subjected to more of these agents (as they walk on floors & lick their paws, transmitting the agent to their throats & tonsils).

Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer.  Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.) E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin I’m not at all sure what a reference to a person is supposed to indicate.

That the people who made the statement are qualified to make the statement. I find the sources credibile. It’s not the sources I have trouble with, it’s your conclusion.

Like you said, *you* have trouble with my conclusion, I don’t. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors.

I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me. This does seem to sum up your argument.  But it’s not an argument that would satisfy a scientist interested in determing the truth.

Depends on what truth you’re looking for…. I’m looking for a truth that will offer more protection for cats.  You can draw whatever conclusion you feel comfortable with. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Phil — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants"

This statement indicates that the author could find no link between environmental pollutants & this cancer, but that he/she believes there is such a link.  Let’s assume the author is correct. Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado

I appreciate the reference.  I don’t have easy access to this journal.  But since you cited it, can I presume that is shows the other 2 items needed to draw your conclusion? b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). Note that the conclusion in (b) is not at all clear.  It is very possible that the cancer is caused by cleaning agents & that indoor cats are therefore subjected to more of these agents (as they walk on floors & lick their paws, transmitting the agent to their throats & tonsils). E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin

I’m not at all sure what a reference to a person is supposed to indicate. I find the sources credibile.

It’s not the sources I have trouble with, it’s your conclusion. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors.

Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me.

This does seem to sum up your argument.  But it’s not an argument that would satisfy a scientist interested in determing the truth. Phil

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors).

And, JR said: Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion. My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you?

I have no idea to what "survey" you are referring.  Let’s take a look at the logic in your paragraph above: 1) You stated, "tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones". Although you didn’t back this up with this with any references, let’s accept it at face value. 2) You then said that this implies "an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". I have no idea how you have drawn this implication.  If there is some study showing this link, you have not referenced it (or even mentioned it).  As far as we know, you have drawn this conclusion on your own. 3) You then come to the conclusion that this is "Another good reason for keeping cats indoors". To honestly draw this conclusion you would have to show that: a) The increased incidence of this cancer was due to environmental pollutants. b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area". You’re analogy is not applicable.  Environmental risks are greater for outdoor cats than indoor cats and especially higher in urban areas.

My analogy is perfectly acceptable based on your statement about the greatly increased incidence of this cancer.  Are you suggesting that you wouldn’t rather house a cat somewhere (rural) where its chances of getting a particular cancer were 10% of another location (urban)? It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments No, the risks are due to *outdoor* environmental pollutants.

It was not at all clear from your previous posting that this link had been shown by the (presumed) studies.  You suggested there was only an "etiologic association". Otherwise, the distinction would have been between indoors and outdoors rather than urban and rural.

You are the one drawing the distinction. (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors. Unlikely.  Cats are never better off outdoors in an urban environment. . . .

I’m not going to start this debate again, but you are using the conclusion you are trying to draw to support the same conclusion.  Not allowed in modern science. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). And, JR said: Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion. My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you? I have no idea to what "survey" you are referring.  Let’s take a look at the logic in your paragraph above: 1) You stated, "tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones". Although you didn’t back this up with this with any references, let’s accept it at face value.

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin I find the sources credibile.  There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me. Phil

Response:

Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors).

Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion.  I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area".   It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated.

I have, unfortunately, a little experience with this type of cancer in cats. I know that it is a very aggressive cancer & that it is only treatable if caught very early & if all of the affected tissue can be removed.  if all of the cancerous tissue is not removed, the cancer will likely appear. I pray that this poor kitty will be ok. Carol

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion.

My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you? I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area".

You’re analogy is not applicable.  Environmental risks are greater for outdoor cats than indoor cats and especially higher in urban areas. It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments

No, the risks are due to *outdoor* environmental pollutants.  Otherwise, the distinction would have been between indoors and outdoors rather than urban and rural. (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors.

Unlikely.  Cats are never better off outdoors in an urban environment. http://maxshouse.com/outdoor_risks.htm http://maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm Phil http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Carol, I’m not a DVM, but my understanding is that the prognosis is bleak.  A Deja.Com search for "Mimi, squamous" in alt.cats should get you to a similar thread with more information.  My wife routinely sees oral tumors on a referral basis, so I can put you in touch with her if you need specific information. Regards, Edward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated. Carol A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil. remove xx to send email

Response:

Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated. Carol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil.

remove xx to send email

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura

Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil. — "With the qualities of cleanliness, discretion, affection, patience,         dignity, and courage that cats have, how many of us,    I ask you, would be capable of being cats?’ –Fernand Mery         Feline Healthcare & More:  http://maxshouse.com                http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – remove xx to send email

Response:

Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated.

Carol, OK – here’s my 2 cents worth, and I’m not sure it is worth that – hope it has enough detail for you. However, Phil is a fountain of knowledge and may have additional info. I’d start by telling your friend that she should consider taking her cat to a good veterinary oncologist or to a veterinary teaching hospital if at all possible. My limited understanding of this particular cancer is that yes, it is very aggressive, and your friend needs to know what all the options are as quickly as possible. Radiation combined with chemotherapy appears to be the most common treatment, and there are some new therapies being tried – success varies. The degree of success and the additional length of quality life your friend’s cat will get as a result depends greatly on how far the disease has progressed before treatment. So it is important that the diagnosis is accurate – I agree with Phil that a thoracic X-ray (and other tests if necessary) are a very good idea to accurately stage the disease. That’s why I suggest that she seek out the well-trained people. Having said all that though, it is a serious form of cancer, and I’m really sorry to hear that your friend’s cat is so ill.  Combined with the kitty’s other health problems, this must be a particularly difficult time for your friend. There is someone in this ng whose cat had a squamous cell carcinoma, so hopefully he will read your post and reply as well. Please let us know how the cat does.  Laura

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially. The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil.

Yeah – me too. But I hate letting posts like that go unacknowledged. These folks need info fast. I hope she gets the info. Happy New Year, Phil. I hope your kitties are well and happy! Laura — remove xx to send email

Response:

A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol remove xx to send email

Response:

A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol

Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura remove xx to send email

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. I think I see what’s going on now (please tell me if I’m wrong): – The study shows the increased incidence of this cancer in urban cats. – Somewhere in the article the author stated "Tonsillar squamous cell     carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in     rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". Based on this, you have decided that – "Environmental pollutants" must mean outdoor pollutants only.

Yes. Because the authors made the reference to urban and rural areas and not indoor and outdoor, a reasonable conclusion is the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants. – There IS a link between outdoor environmental pollutants & this cancer. Sorry, but drawing conclusions like this without evidence is bad science, pain & simple.

That’s the conclusion you have drawn for yourself.  That’s fine with me… Whatever turns you on.  It doesn’t change my position. As far as I’m concerned, by "rural" and "urban", the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white. Master, I am sorry for assuming that this  worthless little grashopper might know something about science & logic.  But I am now suitably humbled (despite my PhD) & will gladly sit at your feet so I may grow as wise as you.  Please continue to drop your pearls before this unworthy swine.

Jeeze, I didn’t know you had such a low opinion of yourself (despite your PhD).  I never thought of you as or called you a "little grashopper" or "unworthy swine".  But its nice to see you’ve grown a usenet skin. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? "Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e.,

swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants. Actually, I would think that "tonsillar" means relating to the tonsils. Furthermore, there are airborne carcinogens that cause cancer in places other than the respiratory system.  E.g.: – Airborne PCBs can cause skin cancer. – Airborne asbetos can cause peritoneal cancer. – Cigarette smoke can cause tonsillar cancer.

All true. However, to me, the term "toxins" or "pollutants", when referring to animals, usually means ingested unless otherwise stated. You continue to draw unwarranted conclusions.

I don’t think so.  If this bothers you so much (with apparently it does), why not call the authors and ask them if they were referring to indoor or outdoor, inhaled or ingested environmental pollutants.  I’m perfectly satisfied they were referring to outdoor, and probably ingested, environmental pollutants. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing. I never doubted this for a second.

Then you should also not doubt I will not my position.  As far as I’m concerned,"rural" and "urban", in this instance implies outdoor environmental pollutants. On the other hand, I try not to close my mind & am always willing to rethink issues in the face of logic & evidence. Unfortunately, I have seen neither of these so far.

Sounds like a personal problem.  Maybe you don’t want to see for reasons known only to you.  Perhaps you’re an outdoor proponent and consider my interpretation as being against your beliefs. Who knows? Because the authors made the reference to urban and rural areas and not indoor and outdoor environments, a reasonable conclusion is the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants.  This is how I interpret their statement.  You’re welcome to interpret their statement anyway you like.  I explained numerous times how I reached my conclusion – you don’t have to agree with or accept it – I really don’t care either way.  You have your intpretation, and I have mine. That’s it. A draw. A stalemate. An impasse. A cul-de-sac.

Response:

I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands.

I think I see what’s going on now (please tell me if I’m wrong): – The study shows the increased incidence of this cancer in urban cats. – Somewhere in the article the author stated "Tonsillar squamous cell     carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in     rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". Based on this, you have decided that – "Environmental pollutants" must mean outdoor pollutants only. – There IS a link between outdoor environmental pollutants & this cancer. Sorry, but drawing conclusions like this without evidence is bad science, pain & simple.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white.

Master, I am sorry for assuming that this  worthless little grashopper might know something about science & logic.  But I am now suitably humbled (despite my PhD) & will gladly sit at your feet so I may grow as wise as you.  Please continue to drop your pearls before this unworthy swine. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? "Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e., swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants.

Actually, I would think that "tonsillar" means relating to the tonsils. Furthermore, there are airborne carcinogens that cause cancer in places other than the respiratory system.  E.g.: – Airborne PCBs can cause skin cancer. – Airborne asbetos can cause peritoneal cancer. – Cigarette smoke can cause tonsillar cancer. You continue to draw unwarranted conclusions. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing.

I never doubted this for a second.  On the other hand, I try not to close my mind & am always willing to rethink issues in the face of logic & evidence. Unfortunately, I have seen neither of these so far. Phil

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk. If you believe this, then you should advocate that cats NOT be kept in urban environments.  The only clear conclusion one can draw from your quoted statement is that cats are at a MUCH greater risk for tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban environments.

That’s the conclusion you draw, not me.  You can draw any conclusion you like.  I interpret the authors statement to refer to outdoor risks.  My statement stands. Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer. So, let me understand … the article compares urban & rural areas, but does not even mention indoor vs outdoor differences.  And this leads to you believe that there IS a conclusion to be drawn about indoor vs outdoor differences.  I know of no logic system that supports such a conclusion.

I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.) I’m willing to concede this.  What you don’t seem to understand is that this does not allow you to draw your conclusion in a manner that science recognizes.

No, its just not a conclusion that *you* agree with. You have that right. I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. You are, of course, free to invent your own logic & draw what conclusions you will.

And you are free to invent your own logic and intpretation and draw whatever conclusion that makes you happy.  Logic dictates "environmental pollutants", in this instance, refers to *outdoor* "environmental pollutants" since indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  Again, my statement stands.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy.

You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne?

"Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e., swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants. You could end all of the debate quickly by showing us the logical steps that allow you to draw this conclusion.

I already have.  You don’t have to accept it, it really doesn’t matter to me. It shouldn’t require more than a few bullet points.  I await your response eagerly & will be happy to publicly withdraw my objections & admit I was incorrect if you can produce this.

You don’t have to withdraw anything.  I’m not asking you to admit you were incorrect.  You merely interpreted the meaning differently than I. Since indoor environmental pollutants would be similar, the *only* logical conclusion is the authors were referring to outdoor environmental pollutants. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing. Phil

Response:

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk.

If you believe this, then you should advocate that cats NOT be kept in urban environments.  The only clear conclusion one can draw from your quoted statement is that cats are at a MUCH greater risk for tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban environments. Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer.

So, let me understand … the article compares urban & rural areas, but does not even mention indoor vs outdoor differences.  And this leads to you believe that there IS a conclusion to be drawn about indoor vs outdoor differences.  I know of no logic system that supports such a conclusion. Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.)

I’m willing to concede this.  What you don’t seem to understand is that this does not allow you to draw your conclusion in a manner that science recognizes.  You are, of course, free to invent your own logic & draw what conclusions you will.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case.

Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? You could end all of the debate quickly by showing us the logical steps that allow you to draw this conclusion.  It shouldn’t require more than a few bullet points.  I await your response eagerly & will be happy to publicly withdraw my objections & admit I was incorrect if you can produce this. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" This statement indicates that the author could find no link between environmental pollutants & this cancer, but that he/she believes there is such a link.  Let’s assume the author is correct.

If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado I appreciate the reference.  I don’t have easy access to this journal. But since you cited it, can I presume that is shows the other 2 items needed to draw your conclusion? b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). Note that the conclusion in (b) is not at all clear.  It is very possible that the cancer is caused by cleaning agents & that indoor cats are therefore subjected to more of these agents (as they walk on floors & lick their paws, transmitting the agent to their throats & tonsils).

Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer.  Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.) E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin I’m not at all sure what a reference to a person is supposed to indicate.

That the people who made the statement are qualified to make the statement. I find the sources credibile. It’s not the sources I have trouble with, it’s your conclusion.

Like you said, *you* have trouble with my conclusion, I don’t. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors.

I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me. This does seem to sum up your argument.  But it’s not an argument that would satisfy a scientist interested in determing the truth.

Depends on what truth you’re looking for…. I’m looking for a truth that will offer more protection for cats.  You can draw whatever conclusion you feel comfortable with. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Phil — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

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"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants"

This statement indicates that the author could find no link between environmental pollutants & this cancer, but that he/she believes there is such a link.  Let’s assume the author is correct. Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado

I appreciate the reference.  I don’t have easy access to this journal.  But since you cited it, can I presume that is shows the other 2 items needed to draw your conclusion? b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). Note that the conclusion in (b) is not at all clear.  It is very possible that the cancer is caused by cleaning agents & that indoor cats are therefore subjected to more of these agents (as they walk on floors & lick their paws, transmitting the agent to their throats & tonsils). E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin

I’m not at all sure what a reference to a person is supposed to indicate. I find the sources credibile.

It’s not the sources I have trouble with, it’s your conclusion. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors.

Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me.

This does seem to sum up your argument.  But it’s not an argument that would satisfy a scientist interested in determing the truth. Phil

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors).

And, JR said: Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion. My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you?

I have no idea to what "survey" you are referring.  Let’s take a look at the logic in your paragraph above: 1) You stated, "tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones". Although you didn’t back this up with this with any references, let’s accept it at face value. 2) You then said that this implies "an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". I have no idea how you have drawn this implication.  If there is some study showing this link, you have not referenced it (or even mentioned it).  As far as we know, you have drawn this conclusion on your own. 3) You then come to the conclusion that this is "Another good reason for keeping cats indoors". To honestly draw this conclusion you would have to show that: a) The increased incidence of this cancer was due to environmental pollutants. b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area". You’re analogy is not applicable.  Environmental risks are greater for outdoor cats than indoor cats and especially higher in urban areas.

My analogy is perfectly acceptable based on your statement about the greatly increased incidence of this cancer.  Are you suggesting that you wouldn’t rather house a cat somewhere (rural) where its chances of getting a particular cancer were 10% of another location (urban)? It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments No, the risks are due to *outdoor* environmental pollutants.

It was not at all clear from your previous posting that this link had been shown by the (presumed) studies.  You suggested there was only an "etiologic association". Otherwise, the distinction would have been between indoors and outdoors rather than urban and rural.

You are the one drawing the distinction. (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors. Unlikely.  Cats are never better off outdoors in an urban environment. . . .

I’m not going to start this debate again, but you are using the conclusion you are trying to draw to support the same conclusion.  Not allowed in modern science. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). And, JR said: Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion. My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you? I have no idea to what "survey" you are referring.  Let’s take a look at the logic in your paragraph above: 1) You stated, "tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones". Although you didn’t back this up with this with any references, let’s accept it at face value.

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin I find the sources credibile.  There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me. Phil

Response:

Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors).

Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion.  I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area".   It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated.

I have, unfortunately, a little experience with this type of cancer in cats. I know that it is a very aggressive cancer & that it is only treatable if caught very early & if all of the affected tissue can be removed.  if all of the cancerous tissue is not removed, the cancer will likely appear. I pray that this poor kitty will be ok. Carol

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion.

My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you? I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area".

You’re analogy is not applicable.  Environmental risks are greater for outdoor cats than indoor cats and especially higher in urban areas. It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments

No, the risks are due to *outdoor* environmental pollutants.  Otherwise, the distinction would have been between indoors and outdoors rather than urban and rural. (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors.

Unlikely.  Cats are never better off outdoors in an urban environment. http://maxshouse.com/outdoor_risks.htm http://maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm Phil http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Carol, I’m not a DVM, but my understanding is that the prognosis is bleak.  A Deja.Com search for "Mimi, squamous" in alt.cats should get you to a similar thread with more information.  My wife routinely sees oral tumors on a referral basis, so I can put you in touch with her if you need specific information. Regards, Edward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated. Carol A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil. remove xx to send email

Response:

Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated. Carol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil.

remove xx to send email

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura

Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil. — "With the qualities of cleanliness, discretion, affection, patience,         dignity, and courage that cats have, how many of us,    I ask you, would be capable of being cats?’ –Fernand Mery         Feline Healthcare & More:  http://maxshouse.com                http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – remove xx to send email

Response:

Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated.

Carol, OK – here’s my 2 cents worth, and I’m not sure it is worth that – hope it has enough detail for you. However, Phil is a fountain of knowledge and may have additional info. I’d start by telling your friend that she should consider taking her cat to a good veterinary oncologist or to a veterinary teaching hospital if at all possible. My limited understanding of this particular cancer is that yes, it is very aggressive, and your friend needs to know what all the options are as quickly as possible. Radiation combined with chemotherapy appears to be the most common treatment, and there are some new therapies being tried – success varies. The degree of success and the additional length of quality life your friend’s cat will get as a result depends greatly on how far the disease has progressed before treatment. So it is important that the diagnosis is accurate – I agree with Phil that a thoracic X-ray (and other tests if necessary) are a very good idea to accurately stage the disease. That’s why I suggest that she seek out the well-trained people. Having said all that though, it is a serious form of cancer, and I’m really sorry to hear that your friend’s cat is so ill.  Combined with the kitty’s other health problems, this must be a particularly difficult time for your friend. There is someone in this ng whose cat had a squamous cell carcinoma, so hopefully he will read your post and reply as well. Please let us know how the cat does.  Laura

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially. The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil.

Yeah – me too. But I hate letting posts like that go unacknowledged. These folks need info fast. I hope she gets the info. Happy New Year, Phil. I hope your kitties are well and happy! Laura — remove xx to send email

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A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol remove xx to send email

Response:

A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol

Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura remove xx to send email

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. I think I see what’s going on now (please tell me if I’m wrong): – The study shows the increased incidence of this cancer in urban cats. – Somewhere in the article the author stated "Tonsillar squamous cell     carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in     rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". Based on this, you have decided that – "Environmental pollutants" must mean outdoor pollutants only.

Yes. Because the authors made the reference to urban and rural areas and not indoor and outdoor, a reasonable conclusion is the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants. – There IS a link between outdoor environmental pollutants & this cancer. Sorry, but drawing conclusions like this without evidence is bad science, pain & simple.

That’s the conclusion you have drawn for yourself.  That’s fine with me… Whatever turns you on.  It doesn’t change my position. As far as I’m concerned, by "rural" and "urban", the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white. Master, I am sorry for assuming that this  worthless little grashopper might know something about science & logic.  But I am now suitably humbled (despite my PhD) & will gladly sit at your feet so I may grow as wise as you.  Please continue to drop your pearls before this unworthy swine.

Jeeze, I didn’t know you had such a low opinion of yourself (despite your PhD).  I never thought of you as or called you a "little grashopper" or "unworthy swine".  But its nice to see you’ve grown a usenet skin. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? "Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e.,

swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants. Actually, I would think that "tonsillar" means relating to the tonsils. Furthermore, there are airborne carcinogens that cause cancer in places other than the respiratory system.  E.g.: – Airborne PCBs can cause skin cancer. – Airborne asbetos can cause peritoneal cancer. – Cigarette smoke can cause tonsillar cancer.

All true. However, to me, the term "toxins" or "pollutants", when referring to animals, usually means ingested unless otherwise stated. You continue to draw unwarranted conclusions.

I don’t think so.  If this bothers you so much (with apparently it does), why not call the authors and ask them if they were referring to indoor or outdoor, inhaled or ingested environmental pollutants.  I’m perfectly satisfied they were referring to outdoor, and probably ingested, environmental pollutants. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing. I never doubted this for a second.

Then you should also not doubt I will not my position.  As far as I’m concerned,"rural" and "urban", in this instance implies outdoor environmental pollutants. On the other hand, I try not to close my mind & am always willing to rethink issues in the face of logic & evidence. Unfortunately, I have seen neither of these so far.

Sounds like a personal problem.  Maybe you don’t want to see for reasons known only to you.  Perhaps you’re an outdoor proponent and consider my interpretation as being against your beliefs. Who knows? Because the authors made the reference to urban and rural areas and not indoor and outdoor environments, a reasonable conclusion is the authors were alluding to outdoor environmental pollutants.  This is how I interpret their statement.  You’re welcome to interpret their statement anyway you like.  I explained numerous times how I reached my conclusion – you don’t have to agree with or accept it – I really don’t care either way.  You have your intpretation, and I have mine. That’s it. A draw. A stalemate. An impasse. A cul-de-sac.

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I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands.

I think I see what’s going on now (please tell me if I’m wrong): – The study shows the increased incidence of this cancer in urban cats. – Somewhere in the article the author stated "Tonsillar squamous cell     carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in     rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". Based on this, you have decided that – "Environmental pollutants" must mean outdoor pollutants only. – There IS a link between outdoor environmental pollutants & this cancer. Sorry, but drawing conclusions like this without evidence is bad science, pain & simple.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white.

Master, I am sorry for assuming that this  worthless little grashopper might know something about science & logic.  But I am now suitably humbled (despite my PhD) & will gladly sit at your feet so I may grow as wise as you.  Please continue to drop your pearls before this unworthy swine. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? "Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e., swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants.

Actually, I would think that "tonsillar" means relating to the tonsils. Furthermore, there are airborne carcinogens that cause cancer in places other than the respiratory system.  E.g.: – Airborne PCBs can cause skin cancer. – Airborne asbetos can cause peritoneal cancer. – Cigarette smoke can cause tonsillar cancer. You continue to draw unwarranted conclusions. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing.

I never doubted this for a second.  On the other hand, I try not to close my mind & am always willing to rethink issues in the face of logic & evidence. Unfortunately, I have seen neither of these so far. Phil

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk. If you believe this, then you should advocate that cats NOT be kept in urban environments.  The only clear conclusion one can draw from your quoted statement is that cats are at a MUCH greater risk for tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban environments.

That’s the conclusion you draw, not me.  You can draw any conclusion you like.  I interpret the authors statement to refer to outdoor risks.  My statement stands. Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer. So, let me understand … the article compares urban & rural areas, but does not even mention indoor vs outdoor differences.  And this leads to you believe that there IS a conclusion to be drawn about indoor vs outdoor differences.  I know of no logic system that supports such a conclusion.

I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.) I’m willing to concede this.  What you don’t seem to understand is that this does not allow you to draw your conclusion in a manner that science recognizes.

No, its just not a conclusion that *you* agree with. You have that right. I interpret the authors reference to "environmental pollutants" as referring to outdoor environmental pollutants.  Indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  My statement stands. You are, of course, free to invent your own logic & draw what conclusions you will.

And you are free to invent your own logic and intpretation and draw whatever conclusion that makes you happy.  Logic dictates "environmental pollutants", in this instance, refers to *outdoor* "environmental pollutants" since indoor "environmental pollutants" would be similar.  Again, my statement stands.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy.

You’re still a little too new at this to understand how all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy have been made.  Everything isn’t always in black and white. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case. Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne?

"Tonsillar" seems to indicate oral ingestion, i.e., swallowed…..wouldn’t you think?   If the statement mentioned respiratory or lung cancer, then you could assume the pollutants were airborne pollutants. You could end all of the debate quickly by showing us the logical steps that allow you to draw this conclusion.

I already have.  You don’t have to accept it, it really doesn’t matter to me. It shouldn’t require more than a few bullet points.  I await your response eagerly & will be happy to publicly withdraw my objections & admit I was incorrect if you can produce this.

You don’t have to withdraw anything.  I’m not asking you to admit you were incorrect.  You merely interpreted the meaning differently than I. Since indoor environmental pollutants would be similar, the *only* logical conclusion is the authors were referring to outdoor environmental pollutants. We can go around in circles on this all night, but my statement stands and will remain standing. Phil

Response:

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk.

If you believe this, then you should advocate that cats NOT be kept in urban environments.  The only clear conclusion one can draw from your quoted statement is that cats are at a MUCH greater risk for tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban environments. Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer.

So, let me understand … the article compares urban & rural areas, but does not even mention indoor vs outdoor differences.  And this leads to you believe that there IS a conclusion to be drawn about indoor vs outdoor differences.  I know of no logic system that supports such a conclusion. Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.)

I’m willing to concede this.  What you don’t seem to understand is that this does not allow you to draw your conclusion in a manner that science recognizes.  You are, of course, free to invent your own logic & draw what conclusions you will.  But I am free to refute your argument using the methods that have allowed all of the advances in medicine & science that our cats enjoy. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case.

Now you’re drawing another conclusion: that a supervised outdoor environment will protect a cat from these pollutants.  What basis do you have for suggesting this?  How do you know that the "associated" pollutants are not airborne? You could end all of the debate quickly by showing us the logical steps that allow you to draw this conclusion.  It shouldn’t require more than a few bullet points.  I await your response eagerly & will be happy to publicly withdraw my objections & admit I was incorrect if you can produce this. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" This statement indicates that the author could find no link between environmental pollutants & this cancer, but that he/she believes there is such a link.  Let’s assume the author is correct.

If you assume the author is correct, that should be good enough to want to avoid the risk. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado I appreciate the reference.  I don’t have easy access to this journal. But since you cited it, can I presume that is shows the other 2 items needed to draw your conclusion? b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). Note that the conclusion in (b) is not at all clear.  It is very possible that the cancer is caused by cleaning agents & that indoor cats are therefore subjected to more of these agents (as they walk on floors & lick their paws, transmitting the agent to their throats & tonsils).

Jonathan…. the fact that urban and rural areas were mentioned and not indoor and outdoor, seems to indicate an association between outdoor environmental pollutants and cancer.  Environmental pollutants are more common and plentiful in urban areas (industry, toxin containers, etc.) E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin I’m not at all sure what a reference to a person is supposed to indicate.

That the people who made the statement are qualified to make the statement. I find the sources credibile. It’s not the sources I have trouble with, it’s your conclusion.

Like you said, *you* have trouble with my conclusion, I don’t. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors.

I think it does.  Its just one of the *many* reasons to keep a cat indoors or in a supervised outdoor environment… to keep them away from environmental pollutants that may cause cancer… squamous cell carcinoma in this case. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me. This does seem to sum up your argument.  But it’s not an argument that would satisfy a scientist interested in determing the truth.

Depends on what truth you’re looking for…. I’m looking for a truth that will offer more protection for cats.  You can draw whatever conclusion you feel comfortable with. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Phil — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

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"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants"

This statement indicates that the author could find no link between environmental pollutants & this cancer, but that he/she believes there is such a link.  Let’s assume the author is correct. Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado

I appreciate the reference.  I don’t have easy access to this journal.  But since you cited it, can I presume that is shows the other 2 items needed to draw your conclusion? b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). Note that the conclusion in (b) is not at all clear.  It is very possible that the cancer is caused by cleaning agents & that indoor cats are therefore subjected to more of these agents (as they walk on floors & lick their paws, transmitting the agent to their throats & tonsils). E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin

I’m not at all sure what a reference to a person is supposed to indicate. I find the sources credibile.

It’s not the sources I have trouble with, it’s your conclusion. There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors.

Even if both of these are true, it doesn’t justify your conclusion: the increased incidence of tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma in urban areas is a good reason to keep your cat indoors. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me.

This does seem to sum up your argument.  But it’s not an argument that would satisfy a scientist interested in determing the truth. Phil

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

Response:

Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors).

And, JR said: Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion. My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you?

I have no idea to what "survey" you are referring.  Let’s take a look at the logic in your paragraph above: 1) You stated, "tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones". Although you didn’t back this up with this with any references, let’s accept it at face value. 2) You then said that this implies "an etiologic association with environmental pollutants". I have no idea how you have drawn this implication.  If there is some study showing this link, you have not referenced it (or even mentioned it).  As far as we know, you have drawn this conclusion on your own. 3) You then come to the conclusion that this is "Another good reason for keeping cats indoors". To honestly draw this conclusion you would have to show that: a) The increased incidence of this cancer was due to environmental pollutants. b) These particular pollutants are found in greater numbers outdoors than indoors in an urban environment. c) The urban subjects included indoor-outdoor cats, as well as indoor cats (to rule put other potential causative factors for this cancer). I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area". You’re analogy is not applicable.  Environmental risks are greater for outdoor cats than indoor cats and especially higher in urban areas.

My analogy is perfectly acceptable based on your statement about the greatly increased incidence of this cancer.  Are you suggesting that you wouldn’t rather house a cat somewhere (rural) where its chances of getting a particular cancer were 10% of another location (urban)? It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments No, the risks are due to *outdoor* environmental pollutants.

It was not at all clear from your previous posting that this link had been shown by the (presumed) studies.  You suggested there was only an "etiologic association". Otherwise, the distinction would have been between indoors and outdoors rather than urban and rural.

You are the one drawing the distinction. (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors. Unlikely.  Cats are never better off outdoors in an urban environment. . . .

I’m not going to start this debate again, but you are using the conclusion you are trying to draw to support the same conclusion.  Not allowed in modern science. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). And, JR said: Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion. My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you? I have no idea to what "survey" you are referring.  Let’s take a look at the logic in your paragraph above: 1) You stated, "tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones". Although you didn’t back this up with this with any references, let’s accept it at face value.

"Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants" Tonsillar Squamous Cell Carcinoma, In: Small Animal Clinical Oncology, p234, W.B. Saunders Company 1996; Stephen J. Withrow, D.V.M., Professor of Surgery and Oncology Chief, Clinical Oncology Service Comparative Oncology Unit College of Veterinary Medicine Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado E. Gregory MacEwen, V.M.D. Professor of Medicine and Oncology Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine Member, Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center School of Medicine University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin I find the sources credibile.  There are more environmental hazards in an urban area than rural, and more dangers outdoors than indoors. That about sums it up. Its good enough for me. Phil

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Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors).

Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion.  I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area".   It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors. — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

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Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated.

I have, unfortunately, a little experience with this type of cancer in cats. I know that it is a very aggressive cancer & that it is only treatable if caught very early & if all of the affected tissue can be removed.  if all of the cancerous tissue is not removed, the cancer will likely appear. I pray that this poor kitty will be ok. Carol

– JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

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Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). Unless there is some more data than the above, you have jumped to a completely unwarranted conclusion.

My conclusion is based on epidemiological studies —  you don’t think I made the survey myself, do you? I could also have said that this is "another good reason to not own a cat if you live in an urban area".

You’re analogy is not applicable.  Environmental risks are greater for outdoor cats than indoor cats and especially higher in urban areas. It is also possible that the increased occurrence is due to something found indoors in urban environments

No, the risks are due to *outdoor* environmental pollutants.  Otherwise, the distinction would have been between indoors and outdoors rather than urban and rural. (where many people live together in close proximity) & that cats in urban environments are better off outdoors.

Unlikely.  Cats are never better off outdoors in an urban environment. http://maxshouse.com/outdoor_risks.htm http://maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm Phil http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — JR & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx

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Carol, I’m not a DVM, but my understanding is that the prognosis is bleak.  A Deja.Com search for "Mimi, squamous" in alt.cats should get you to a similar thread with more information.  My wife routinely sees oral tumors on a referral basis, so I can put you in touch with her if you need specific information. Regards, Edward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated. Carol A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil. remove xx to send email

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Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated. Carol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil.

remove xx to send email

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura

Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially.  The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil. — "With the qualities of cleanliness, discretion, affection, patience,         dignity, and courage that cats have, how many of us,    I ask you, would be capable of being cats?’ –Fernand Mery         Feline Healthcare & More:  http://maxshouse.com                http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – remove xx to send email

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Laura and Phil, Thanks so much for replying to my post.   A biopsy was done and the pathologist said the type of cancer is squamous.  According to my friend, they got all of the cancer but by a very narrow margin in places.  According to the pathologist, the cancer is likely to metastasize.  Any more information you could share would be greatly appreciated.

Carol, OK – here’s my 2 cents worth, and I’m not sure it is worth that – hope it has enough detail for you. However, Phil is a fountain of knowledge and may have additional info. I’d start by telling your friend that she should consider taking her cat to a good veterinary oncologist or to a veterinary teaching hospital if at all possible. My limited understanding of this particular cancer is that yes, it is very aggressive, and your friend needs to know what all the options are as quickly as possible. Radiation combined with chemotherapy appears to be the most common treatment, and there are some new therapies being tried – success varies. The degree of success and the additional length of quality life your friend’s cat will get as a result depends greatly on how far the disease has progressed before treatment. So it is important that the diagnosis is accurate – I agree with Phil that a thoracic X-ray (and other tests if necessary) are a very good idea to accurately stage the disease. That’s why I suggest that she seek out the well-trained people. Having said all that though, it is a serious form of cancer, and I’m really sorry to hear that your friend’s cat is so ill.  Combined with the kitty’s other health problems, this must be a particularly difficult time for your friend. There is someone in this ng whose cat had a squamous cell carcinoma, so hopefully he will read your post and reply as well. Please let us know how the cat does.  Laura

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura Good call, Laura. Most primary tonsillar cancer is squamous cell carcinoma. Lymphoma can affect the tonsils but is usually accompanied by generalized lymphadenopathy. Other cancer, especially malignant melanoma, may metastasize to the tonsil as well. Interestingly, tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma is 10 times more common in animals living in urban areas than in rural ones, implying an etiologic association with environmental pollutants. (Another good reason for keeping cats indoors). I’m not quite clear on the growth on the tonsil being cancerous, but "the tonsils not being cancerous".   Was a tissue biopsy (histology) performed on the tonsil?  She should probably order thoracic radiography to detect metastasis. SCC are quick to metastasize to lymph nodes and lung. Carol mentioned hyperthyroidism.  Since the majority of feline thyroid tumors are benign, thyroid carcinoma may not be suspected initially. The metastic rate of feline thyroid carcinoma is high (70%).  Definitive diagnosis requires histologic examination. I wish she knew the type of cancer. I *hate* guessing in serious matters. Phil.

Yeah – me too. But I hate letting posts like that go unacknowledged. These folks need info fast. I hope she gets the info. Happy New Year, Phil. I hope your kitties are well and happy! Laura — remove xx to send email

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A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol remove xx to send email

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A friend of mine has a cat who is between the ages of 13-14 years old who was recently diagnosed with a pea-sized cancerous growth on his tonsil.  The growth and tonsils were removed (the tonsils were not cancerous) but the vet indicated that this type of cancer is fairly aggressive and will probably metastasize.  The kitty has diabetes and hyperthyroidism, but otherwise is in good health.   I have done a little research on this type of cancer on the Internet, but there doesn’t seem to be much information out there.   If anyone has information about this type of cancer or been in this situation with their cat, I would appreciate any feedback you could give me so I can pass it on to my friend. Carol

Do you have any other info about the type of cancer – it would help me to find additional info for you. For example, is it a sarcoma (probably not likely given its location..)? Sqamous cell carcinoma? You might also try posting to the alt.vet.med site. Thanks, Laura remove xx to send email

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