Talk Cancer » Liver Cancer

Biopsy Option

admin — Tue, 31 May 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’m 1b and approaching my 5th shot of IFN…I haven’t had a biopsy. I have a bleeding disorder, don’t want to take the chance, and my doc agrees it’s not absolutely necessary for me. Because I have minor esophogeal varices, she assumes I have some cirrhosis. Ddavid "Thomas Wagner" wrote in message

news:p6up91p6n0faig7g402il7r2hb43na2amk@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Tue, 31 May 2005 16:54:09 -0500, mond…@verizon.com (Mondino) wrote: >>Saw the Doc today. Great guy. I’m having the blood tests done, of course, >>but >>he kind of hinted that there was an option to get the biopsy. Other than >>the >>fact that you know how damaged your liver is, what other need is there to >>really go through this? How about the ultrasound? Thanks. > Unfortunately, the ultrasound doesn’t show fibrosis. There are some > interesting developments that might eliminate the need for biopsies in > the future (blood tests and CAT scans), but neither is very reliable > yet. You could ask your doc about a Fibrotest or Fibrospect blood test, > that’s on the market and not overly costly. If that test shows a high > fibrosis level, you may not need to go through a biopsy, you know you > have to treat. But if it doesn’t show fibrosis, you can’t rely on that, > so you’d still have to do a biopsy in the end. > Biopsies aren’t that much of a problem anymore, the complication rate > has dropped significantly over the past decades. They usually now do an > ultrasound-guided one so they don’t poke around in the dark. They’re not > my idea of fun, but I went through a few without significant pain. > Thomas > — > To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

Response:

In article <2t5ne.11116$Ri4.3632@okepread07>, as…@cox.net says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You summarized it pretty well, the biopsy is to tell how much live damage >you have. How much inflammation, fibrosis, or cirrhosis, how much steatosis, >how soon you may want to test for hepatocellular carcnoma. (liver cancer). >It may tell you if you have some time to wait, or whether need to go right >into treatment. I’ve had two and they didn’t hurt at all, I have heard from >a few in this group that it can be painful. >My doctor kept a Demerol drip handy just in case. Think I should have faked >a pain? Buster > wrote in message >news:ML-dnZmGL96cQAHfRVn-gQ@comcast.com… >> Saw the Doc today. Great guy. I’m having the blood tests done, of course, >> but >> he kind of hinted that there was an option to get the biopsy. Other than >> the >> fact that you know how damaged your liver is, what other need is there to >> really go through this? How about the ultrasound? Thanks.

Thanks Buster. I’m going through with at least an attempt of treatment regardless. I think I’ll reserve the option of biopsy after the ultra. A physical exam was very positive and I feel great with no symptoms of anything. What’s scary though, is that I have had it for about 25 years based on elevated enzyme levels (AST and ALT only) during that time period. So I know my liver is probably damaged. It’s time to try to make it better.

Response:

In article , t…@capecod.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Tue, 31 May 2005 16:54:09 -0500, mond…@verizon.com (Mondino) wrote: >>Saw the Doc today. Great guy. I’m having the blood tests done, of course, but >>he kind of hinted that there was an option to get the biopsy. Other than the >>fact that you know how damaged your liver is, what other need is there to >>really go through this? How about the ultrasound? Thanks. >Unfortunately, the ultrasound doesn’t show fibrosis. There are some >interesting developments that might eliminate the need for biopsies in >the future (blood tests and CAT scans), but neither is very reliable >yet. You could ask your doc about a Fibrotest or Fibrospect blood test, >that’s on the market and not overly costly. If that test shows a high >fibrosis level, you may not need to go through a biopsy, you know you >have to treat. But if it doesn’t show fibrosis, you can’t rely on that, >so you’d still have to do a biopsy in the end. >Biopsies aren’t that much of a problem anymore, the complication rate >has dropped significantly over the past decades. They usually now do an >ultrasound-guided one so they don’t poke around in the dark. They’re not >my idea of fun, but I went through a few without significant pain. >Thomas >– >To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

Thanks Tom. I’m not sure about the biopsy thing yet, but I will undergo treatment. We’ll see how it goes.

Response:

"Mondino" wrote in message

news:ML-dnZmGL96cQAHfRVn-gQ@comcast.com… > Saw the Doc today. Great guy. I’m having the blood tests done, of course, > but > he kind of hinted that there was an option to get the biopsy. Other than > the > fact that you know how damaged your liver is, what other need is there to > really go through this? How about the ultrasound? Thanks.

I’ve had 3. The first one hurt some, which painkillers eliminated immediately. The other 2 went off without a hitch. Personally, I like knowing what kind of shape my liver’s in.

Response:

Bingo Thip, I’m with you about wanting to know what shape the livers in. Not knowing would just drive me crazy. buster "Thip" wrote in message

news:3g6lplFasvt7U1@individual.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Mondino" wrote in message > news:ML-dnZmGL96cQAHfRVn-gQ@comcast.com… >> Saw the Doc today. Great guy. I’m having the blood tests done, of course, >> but >> he kind of hinted that there was an option to get the biopsy. Other than >> the >> fact that you know how damaged your liver is, what other need is there to >> really go through this? How about the ultrasound? Thanks. > I’ve had 3. The first one hurt some, which painkillers eliminated > immediately. The other 2 went off without a hitch. Personally, I like > knowing what kind of shape my liver’s in.

Response:

Saw the Doc today. Great guy. I’m having the blood tests done, of course, but he kind of hinted that there was an option to get the biopsy. Other than the fact that you know how damaged your liver is, what other need is there to really go through this? How about the ultrasound? Thanks.

Response:

You summarized it pretty well, the biopsy is to tell how much live damage you have. How much inflammation, fibrosis, or cirrhosis, how much steatosis, how soon you may want to test for hepatocellular carcnoma. (liver cancer). It may tell you if you have some time to wait, or whether need to go right into treatment. I’ve had two and they didn’t hurt at all, I have heard from a few in this group that it can be painful. My doctor kept a Demerol drip handy just in case. Think I should have faked a pain? Buster wrote in message

news:ML-dnZmGL96cQAHfRVn-gQ@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Saw the Doc today. Great guy. I’m having the blood tests done, of course, > but > he kind of hinted that there was an option to get the biopsy. Other than > the > fact that you know how damaged your liver is, what other need is there to > really go through this? How about the ultrasound? Thanks.

Response:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 16:54:09 -0500, mond…@verizon.com (Mondino) wrote: >Saw the Doc today. Great guy. I’m having the blood tests done, of course, but >he kind of hinted that there was an option to get the biopsy. Other than the >fact that you know how damaged your liver is, what other need is there to >really go through this? How about the ultrasound? Thanks.

Unfortunately, the ultrasound doesn’t show fibrosis. There are some interesting developments that might eliminate the need for biopsies in the future (blood tests and CAT scans), but neither is very reliable yet. You could ask your doc about a Fibrotest or Fibrospect blood test, that’s on the market and not overly costly. If that test shows a high fibrosis level, you may not need to go through a biopsy, you know you have to treat. But if it doesn’t show fibrosis, you can’t rely on that, so you’d still have to do a biopsy in the end. Biopsies aren’t that much of a problem anymore, the complication rate has dropped significantly over the past decades. They usually now do an ultrasound-guided one so they don’t poke around in the dark. They’re not my idea of fun, but I went through a few without significant pain. Thomas — To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

Response:

Please purr for Tiffy.

admin — Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Poor Tiffy! Purrs coming up! — Britta Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that’s covered in fur! Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiffy is ill again. She got groomed last friday, and she was alright on saturday, sunday, and monday. But on tuesday she started hibernating. She has not eaten for three days now, since tuesday. I have tried tempting her with all kinds of yummy foods but she is not interested. This morning I took her to the animal hospital to be examined, but the vet doesn’t know what is causing her to not eat. Tiffy meowed in the surgery, and I noticed that her voice is hoarse – perhaps she has a sore throat? The vet prescribed antibiotics and an appetite stimulant. If Tiffy’s condition has not improved by tomorrow afternoon I have to bring her back to the vet. Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon. She has had such a hard year and she doesn’t need to be sick anymore. Purrs to all, Flippy & Mia & 5 Cats. www.flippyscatpage.com — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Oh no! lots and lots of Purrs from Aunty Yowie, Uncle Joel, & Cousins Cary, Shmogg, Fluff and IBKFergus. Please keep us updated. Yowie — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiffy is ill again. She got groomed last friday, and she was alright on saturday, sunday, and monday. But on tuesday she started hibernating. She has not eaten for three days now, since tuesday. I have tried tempting her with all kinds of yummy foods but she is not interested. This morning I took her to the animal hospital to be examined, but the vet doesn’t know what is causing her to not eat. Tiffy meowed in the surgery, and I noticed that her voice is hoarse – perhaps she has a sore throat? The vet prescribed antibiotics and an appetite stimulant. If Tiffy’s condition has not improved by tomorrow afternoon I have to bring her back to the vet. Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon. She has had such a hard year and she doesn’t need to be sick anymore. Purrs to all, Flippy & Mia & 5 Cats. www.flippyscatpage.com

Awww, poor little darling. She’s got mega purrs headed her way from our house, along with purrs for her worried moms. —— Krista

Response:

Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon. She has had such a hard year and she doesn’t need to be sick anymore.

Poor Tiffy, and poor her meowmies. You’ve all had such a rough year. Hugs and purrs on the way. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Response:

purr…. Ye gods & little fishes, a sick cat is such a stresfull thing. I eaating again & SOON. — Mathew Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat En Vino Veritas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Dear Flippy, Purrs for Tiffy. It might not help, but I find AD by Science Diet is very good. It is designed for sick or convalescent animals. I use it to teach kittens to eat solids, when diluted with a little warm water, it can be given through a syringe, no needle of course. Just squeeze a little at a time into the mouth. The only trouble I have with this, is all the cats try to steal it, mother cats licking the kittens mouths! It really is cat gourmet food. Buy it from the vet, it is expensive. It is very smooth, and is easily squeezed through a disposable plastic syringe. Best wishes, Marie from OZ

Response:

Tiffy is ill again. She got groomed last friday, and she was alright on saturday, sunday, and monday. But on tuesday she started hibernating. She has not eaten for three days now, since tuesday. I have tried tempting her with all kinds of yummy foods but she is not interested. This morning I took her to the animal hospital to be examined, but the vet doesn’t know what is causing her to not eat. Tiffy meowed in the surgery, and I noticed that her voice is hoarse – perhaps she has a sore throat? The vet prescribed antibiotics and an appetite stimulant. If Tiffy’s condition has not improved by tomorrow afternoon I have to bring her back to the vet. Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon. She has had such a hard year and she doesn’t need to be sick anymore.

Sending purrs that Tif will be back to normal soon. — Steve Touchstone, faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky (RB) Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

Response:

Tiffy is ill again. She got groomed last friday, and she was alright on saturday, sunday, and monday.

Many purrs and prayers she is OK. Helen M — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

Many, many purrs and good vibes heading across the ponds to the Land Down Under for Tiffy. *hugs* helen s –This is an invalid email address to avoid spam– to get correct one remove fame & fortune –Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off–

Response:

Lots of purrs for poor little Tiffy from Elisabet and Hugo Katt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tiffy is ill again. She got groomed last friday, and she was alright on saturday, sunday, and monday. But on tuesday she started hibernating. She has not eaten for three days now, since tuesday. I have tried tempting her with all kinds of yummy foods but she is not interested. This morning I took her to the animal hospital to be examined, but the vet doesn’t know what is causing her to not eat. Tiffy meowed in the surgery, and I noticed that her voice is hoarse – perhaps she has a sore throat? The vet prescribed antibiotics and an appetite stimulant. If Tiffy’s condition has not improved by tomorrow afternoon I have to bring her back to the vet. Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon. She has had such a hard year and she doesn’t need to be sick anymore. Purrs to all, Flippy & Mia & 5 Cats. www.flippyscatpage.com — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Purrs coming for you and for Tiffy — hugs aplenty, too. Christine

Response:

Tiffy is ill again. Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon.

Absolutely!!! Tons of fervent purrs from the kitties, doggy-wags from Sandy, get-well thoughts from me. Hoping to Bast that Tiff will *soon* be up-and-about and stay healthy. Hugs. Jeanne

Response:

This morning I took her to the animal hospital to be examined, but the vet doesn’t know what is causing her to not eat. Tiffy meowed in the surgery, and I noticed that her voice is hoarse – perhaps she has a sore throat? The vet prescribed antibiotics and an appetite stimulant. If Tiffy’s condition has not improved by tomorrow afternoon I have to bring her back to the vet.

Don’t freak out but my cat had stomach and liver cancer. He didn’t want to eat. His voice got hoarse because stomach acid was coming up and burning his esophagus. He also had dry heaves of just mucous, saliva, stomach acid and dark stuff which I now believe was blood. The vet saw nothing, just a thickened stomach wall on xray. The vet gave him something to settle his stomach but he got worse. I brought him back, another vet saw him and saw the cancer. Maybe your cat has stomach acid coming up it’s throat causing him to seem hoarse? Maybe it’s just an upset tummy?

Response:

Poor Tiffy, of course she has purrs and gentle headbutts from Hobbes, Selena, Lacey and especially Sam who is getting over a kitty cold and understands not feeling well. It is such a heart tugging experience when they don’t feel well and they look at you with such big eyes that say "Help me feel better" and you don’t know what to do. Hugs for you and Mia as well as I’m sure you are hurting with Tiffy. Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey and Sam

Response:

Oh Flippy, You’ve had such a rough year, it’s just awful that one more thing had to happen. We’re sending six sets of purrs to you and Tiffy that this will work itself out OK. Regards and Purrs, O J

Response:

Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon. She has had such a hard year and she doesn’t need to be sick anymore.

Purrs on their way for poor little Tiffy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tiffy is ill again. She got groomed last friday, and she was alright on saturday, sunday, and monday. But on tuesday she started hibernating. She has not eaten for three days now, since tuesday. I have tried tempting her with all kinds of yummy foods but she is not interested. This morning I took her to the animal hospital to be examined, but the vet doesn’t know what is causing her to not eat. Tiffy meowed in the surgery, and I noticed that her voice is hoarse – perhaps she has a sore throat? The vet prescribed antibiotics and an appetite stimulant. If Tiffy’s condition has not improved by tomorrow afternoon I have to bring her back to the vet. Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon. She has had such a hard year and she doesn’t need to be sick anymore. Purrs to all, Flippy & Mia & 5 Cats.

Purrs for Tiffy, and for you and Mia, too! Hope it is nothing serious and that the appetitute stimulant works for her. Sherry

Response:

Purrs on the way.

Response:

Purrs on the way for the gorgeous girl, Flippy. Sam

Response:

Purrs and birdie chirps on the way for Tiffy. Jill

Response:

Awww. Many purrs for poor Tiffy. Does your vet have Hills a/d? It’s a very good canned food to feed a cat that is not eating and fits well in a syringe to force feed. Sometimes you really need to kick start their appetite when they stop eating (which can be due to the littlest things). Big ultra purrs coming for Tiffy to feel better now. ((((hugs)))

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Healing purrs are on the way! Hugs, CatNipped

Response:

Purrs from the Enigmatic Eight, and well wishes from us hoomins – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiffy is ill again. She got groomed last friday, and she was alright on saturday, sunday, and monday. But on tuesday she started hibernating. She has not eaten for three days now, since tuesday. I have tried tempting her with all kinds of yummy foods but she is not interested. This morning I took her to the animal hospital to be examined, but the vet doesn’t know what is causing her to not eat. Tiffy meowed in the surgery, and I noticed that her voice is hoarse – perhaps she has a sore throat? The vet prescribed antibiotics and an appetite stimulant. If Tiffy’s condition has not improved by tomorrow afternoon I have to bring her back to the vet. Please purr for Tiffy to feel better soon. She has had such a hard year and she doesn’t need to be sick anymore. Purrs to all, Flippy & Mia & 5 Cats. www.flippyscatpage.com — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

– The ONE and ONLY lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)

over

admin — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Finally received my vl count results after week 24. It is negative. Will celebrate with pizza and Evian tonight. cb (week 28/48, 1b)

Response:

Great news Captain!!! I’ll hoist up an Evian in your honor. Mark

Response:

Yippee!!!! Congrats, Cap’n! Sorry I’m having a hard time getting excited this morning. A very good friend of mine told me this morning that he found out he’s got liver cancer. Shit, man!! Elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum

Response:

Sorry to hear about your friend. This is one of the worst things that might happen to one of us. cb wrote in message

news:23036-419CB162-253@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yippee!!!! Congrats, Cap’n! Sorry I’m having a hard time getting > excited this morning. A very good friend of mine told me this morning > that he found out he’s got liver cancer. Shit, man!! > Elmo > http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile > http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum

Response:

Proost, Mark. Thanks. CB "Mark Emerson" wrote in message

news:sM-dnbDImY3XLAHcRVn-uw@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Great news Captain!!! I’ll hoist up an Evian in your honor. > Mark

Response:

> A very good friend of mine told me this morning >that he found out he’s got liver cancer. Shit, man!! >Elmo

Elmo, I am sorry to hear about your good friend. I will be praying for him. If you would please, email me with his first name so that I many include him on my prayer list. eileen

Response:

That’s great news captain, congratulations. It’s kind of neat to know, that in our 2 countries we celebrate in similar ways.Pizza is big in the US. John "Captain Backo" wrote in message

news:cni9i9$8ki$1@reader08.wxs.nl… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Finally received my vl count results after week 24. > It is negative. > Will celebrate with pizza and Evian > tonight. > cb > (week 28/48, 1b)

Response:

HOT FUCKING DAM MAN!!!! RIGHT ON!!! Enjoy that pizza!! — Russ Visit Alaska @ http://www.tannersacre.com "Captain Backo" wrote in message

Response:

Good news and bad news in one breath, life is so complicated. Shit man is right. There, but for the grace of God, go I. John wrote in message

Response:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:43:18 +0100, "Captain Backo" wrote: >Finally received my vl count results after week 24. >It is negative. >Will celebrate with pizza and Evian >tonight. >cb >(week 28/48, 1b)

Glad to hear it Cap’n. Very glad. Pizza sounds good. Don

Response:

Congladulations! Not to many achovies on that Pizza "Captain Backo" wrote in message

Response:

Congratulations! Have a slice for me! hc "Captain Backo" wrote in message

Response:

Thanks everybody. We really had nice pizza – quatro staggioni with lots of tap water (no Evian in the pizza shop) for me and Cote du Rone for Maya – my lovely whife. Wish SVR to all of you. CB

Response:

I’m really sorry Elmo. Susie wrote in message

—-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= East/West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

Much congrats are in order Captain (gives a salute and clicks heels together) I am a 1b also!!! You are halfway through now so keep it up. It will all be worth it! hc "Captain Backo" wrote in message

Response:

The Sweet's harmonies

admin — Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

* Mick Ronson: dead.

Never knew that, he was undoubtedly Bowie’s best guitar player, and Bowie picked his players well, ala Robert Fripp on Scary Monsters, Lodger. *David Bowie: still, against all the odds, David Bowie.

Of all the over 50 rockers still going I think Bowie’s appearance belies his years. His stuff twith Trent Reznor was pretty good , and maybe that’s where glam rock progressed to in a way, through punk – John Lydon is on record as saying his favourite genre was the Glam era – to the goths and industrial music who all liked to dress up. I guess there was the heavy metal hair band branch to all that, notably gene Simmons claims to have discovered Van Halen.

Response:

Of all the over 50 rockers still going I think Bowie’s appearance belies his years.

He looks better now than he did then. I’m an Alice Cooper fan myself but never considered them Glam. branch to all that, notably gene Simmons claims to have discovered Van Halen.

Gene financed their first demo. Casablanca passed on them but Warner Bros. offered them a contract upon first hearing (in a club). Man, what a great album. Gene was also hoping to get Eddie to replace Ace Frehley when he quit KISS but that never went through. Both are two of my influences though (as they are to probably any boy that grew up in the 70’s).

Response:

* Mick Ronson: dead. Never knew that, he was undoubtedly Bowie’s best guitar player, and Bowie picked his players well, ala Robert Fripp on Scary Monsters, Lodger. *David Bowie: still, against all the odds, David Bowie. Of all the over 50 rockers still going I think Bowie’s appearance belies his years.

Botox.

Response:

Yep, Brit ’70s glam was fun, but it certainly took its toll on a lot of human lives. Here’s a quick where-are-they-now: * Mick Ronson: dead.

He died of liver cancer – I don’t think playing in glam bands had anything to do with that. From what I’ve read, he didn’t live a particularly wild lifestyle. He was one of my early favorites, and his playing still thrills me today.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * Mick Ronson: dead. Never knew that, he was undoubtedly Bowie’s best guitar player, and Bowie picked his players well, ala Robert Fripp on Scary Monsters, Lodger. *David Bowie: still, against all the odds, David Bowie. Of all the over 50 rockers still going I think Bowie’s appearance belies his years. His stuff twith Trent Reznor was pretty good , and maybe that’s where glam rock progressed to in a way, through punk – John Lydon is on record as saying his favourite genre was the Glam era – to the goths and industrial music who all liked to dress up. I guess there was the heavy metal hair band branch to all that, notably gene Simmons claims to have discovered Van Halen.

Ronson was a heavy, heavy drinker – and it eventually took its toll. Whenever I see pictures of Ronson with his natural Les Paul (like mine!!) I’m reminded of how great of a rocker he was. A few of my fondest memories were of hanging out with him in New York talking about Bowie and guitars. He was really down to earth – loved to talk gear – and swore he just used a MXR Distortion + for all of his work with Bowie and Ian Hunter. He is GREATLY missed….

Response:

My theory that I always joke about with my friends…. Bowie sold his soul to the Devil to look that good. After all his years of drinking, pills, and Heroin, there’s no other logical answer. It’s not like there was a period where he dropped out, then came back looking good – as a long-time Bowie fanatic, he’s just looked good and young all the time. I remember seeing him on A&E’s Live By Request – closeups, no editing, and no flattery – he looked, sounded, and moved amazing….

Response:

There is very little on the net about The Sweet. Does anyone know who in this band did the seering top harmony, was it Brian double tracked ?

They used the Eventide Harmonizer (new back then in the mid-70s) on many of their tracks to get those over-the-top chorus vocals, especially on the album "Give Us A Wink." http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos

Response:

There is very little on the net about The Sweet. Does anyone know who in this band did the seering top harmony, was it Brian double tracked ?

Response:

There is very little on the net about The Sweet. Does anyone know who in this band did the seering top harmony, was it Brian double tracked ?

I think most of the top harmonies were by Steve Priest, the bass player. — Ross Howard

Response:

There is very little on the net about The Sweet. Does anyone know who in this band did the seering top harmony, was it Brian double tracked ? I think most of the top harmonies were by Steve Priest, the bass player.

They are just impossible to reach. Amazing. I can’t get them, I can usually nail Robert Plant’s even at my age. But not this band. and their vocals are as tight as the rest of the music was tight and fast. What a great band ! ! ! Pity their management had them doing half the crap they did.

Response:

seventies, funny funny. No playback no tricks, they played live and it was real tight, and real talented. For me they demonstrated the essence of sounding well on stage, timing, timing and timing again. Though many may disagree I still have to thank Chinn and Chapmann for writing pop tunes for this incredible band, for even if those were easy pop- earhangers, I’m sure that no band could have performed them better, more professional than Sweet did.They were not a constructed pop band, they were already fully adequate musicians that just needed hits to breake through. The explanation is, that no matter how good a musician you are, you need a good song, (and follow ups) to get your career going, nobody wants to dance to- or listen to- scales a whole friday night!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They are just impossible to reach. Amazing. I can’t get them, I can usually nail Robert Plant’s even at my age. But not this band. and their vocals are as tight as the rest of the music was tight and fast. What a great band ! ! ! Pity their management had them doing half the crap they did. You’re right about this. I heard them in Tivoli back then in the seventies, funny funny. No playback no tricks, they played live and it was real tight, and real talented. For me they demonstrated the essence of sounding well on stage, timing, timing and timing again. Though many may disagree I still have to thank Chinn and Chapmann for writing pop tunes for this incredible band, for even if those were easy pop- earhangers, I’m sure that no band could have performed them better, more professional than Sweet did.They were not a constructed pop band, they were already fully adequate musicians that just needed hits to breake through.

I think they were discovered — like Mud (who were also impressively tight live) — by Mickey Most (ex Animals). Yep, Brit ’70s glam was fun, but it certainly took its toll on a lot of human lives. Here’s a quick where-are-they-now: * Sweet’s singer Brian Connolly: dead. (So is the drummer.) * Mud’s singer Les Gray: dead. * Marc Bolan: dead. * Mickey Finn: dead. * Mick Ronson: dead. * Gary Glitter: convicted pedophile, last reported living in Thailand. * Alvin Stardust (AKA Shane Fenton), Suzi Quatro & Roy Wood: still working the scampi-in-a-basket retro circuit. * Mud’s guitarist Rob Brown (the curly-haired one in the evening gown, remember?) : reinvented himself, against all the odds, as a highly successful producer of Ibiza club anthems. *David Bowie: still, against all the odds, David Bowie. — Ross Howard

Response:

The "Worried Well"

admin — Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Toxins, no doubt. With the liver, it’s so often those darn toxins. .. Actually, milk thistle is a reasonable thing to take, as best I can determine. at least in terms of it being beneficial to the liver. It If it is a reasonable thing, why do you feel a need to take a pot-short at it anyway ("those darn toxins")? Some sort of a compulsion?

Why take something that is not needed?

Response:

Maybe that Milk Thistle suggestion didn’t work. I recently came upon the "weak liver lady" on a Liver Forum (as opposed to the Alternative Medicine Forum,,,some people go from doctor to doctor; with the internet, they can from forum to forum). Now it now looks a three-day fast to "cleanse the liver" is in her future, though a respondent suggested an organic, caffinated ciffee enema might do the trick. Should this make Starbucks happy?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs? Good question. Thee are two distinct groups: those who rely on science to reach medical decisions, and those who rely on anecdotes, sales pitches and Buddy, Your first mistake. I am not your buddy. would you please be kind enough to stop using the word "science"? It involves a thing called an "open mind". It’s nauseating to see it coming from someone with a totally closed, sealed-shut (and therefore relatively useless) mind. Your second mistake, i.e., seeing your pathology in others.

At least I am not pathological enough to want to make my kids suffer for my superstitious pathological unscientific prejudices.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – message Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs? Good question. Thee are two distinct groups: those who rely on science to reach medical decisions, and those who rely on anecdotes, sales pitches and Buddy, Your first mistake. I am not your buddy. would you please be kind enough to stop using the word "science"? It involves a thing called an "open mind". It’s nauseating to see it coming from someone with a totally closed, sealed-shut (and therefore relatively useless) mind. Your second mistake, i.e., seeing your pathology in others. At least I am not pathological enough to want to make my kids suffer for my superstitious pathological unscientific prejudices.

My prejudices are all scientific. What is your excuse?

Response:

It sounds like Soft-eng wants more company amongst the worried well. Sad, that.

Response:

If it is a reasonable thing, why do you feel a need to take a pot-short at it anyway ("those darn toxins")? Some sort of a compulsion?

Response:

chances are, you have been brainwashed from early childhood to believe that any MD can do no wrong.

Your lack of presumption is touching. le moo

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs? Good question. Thee are two distinct groups: those who rely on science to reach medical decisions, and those who rely on anecdotes, sales pitches and Buddy, would you please be kind enough to stop using the word "science"? It involves a thing called an "open mind". It’s nauseating to see it coming from someone with a totally closed, sealed-shut (and therefore relatively useless) mind. Be nice, sometimes people read these newsgroups after breakfast, such misuse of terms could make it hard to keep it down…

Mark is so filed with hate, this ng is his breakfast. He is a drug pusher, gives his kid Ritalin, organized medicine brain washed You fill in the blank. Jan Rich is a cyberstalker and he has been stalking Jan for a long time. John Bain Are you sure my name is Richard Jacobson?? Is it or isn’t it?

Negative. I am grateful for one thing; that Richard Jacobson is not my real name. Unfortunately the Richard Jacobson that DOES live in Hawaii may not be too happy with my assuming his name for purposes of the internet especially given the recent events. He happens to live on a different island from me. I do plan to contact him to let him know that someone may try to harass him since he is listed in the phone book. === Aloha,Rich Richard H. Jacobson Always remember to put Horace before Descarte

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs? Good question. Thee are two distinct groups: those who rely on science to reach medical decisions, and those who rely on anecdotes, sales pitches and Buddy, would you please be kind enough to stop using the word "science"? It involves a thing called an "open mind". It’s nauseating to see it coming from someone with a totally closed, sealed-shut (and therefore relatively useless) mind. Be nice, sometimes people read these newsgroups after breakfast, such misuse of terms could make it hard to keep it down… Mark is so filed with hate, this ng is his breakfast. He is a drug pusher, gives his kid Ritalin, organized medicine brain washed You fill in the blank.

That blank would be between your ears. It is properly called a void. Jan, you are an anti-semetic bigot who has trouble understanding anything beyond the concepts of the sandbox. You are a coward, taking pot shots at me from behind your killfile. You refuse to engage in discussion with anyone. When an intelligent conversation is going on, you take shots at the people you hate, and thus, derail the intelligence. You do this because you cannot understand anything beyond sandbox.

Response:

Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs? Good question. Thee are two distinct groups: those who rely on science to reach medical decisions, and those who rely on anecdotes, sales pitches and Buddy,

Your first mistake. I am not your buddy. would you please be kind enough to stop using the word "science"? It involves a thing called an "open mind". It’s nauseating to see it coming from someone with a totally closed, sealed-shut (and therefore relatively useless) mind.

Your second mistake, i.e., seeing your pathology in others. Be nice, sometimes people read these newsgroups after breakfast, such misuse of terms could make it hard to keep it down…

I find your ilk humouous.

Response:

Buddy, would you please be kind enough to stop using the word "science"? It involves a thing called an "open mind". It’s nauseating to see it coming from someone with a totally closed, sealed-shut (and therefore relatively useless) mind. Be nice, sometimes people read these newsgroups after breakfast, such misuse of terms could make it hard to keep it down…

Response:

Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs? I find these alternative medicine/health forums so interesting as I never knew there was so much going on. It never occurred to me that my system could be "out of balance" or that my colon needed irrigating. Or that I should spend time in an oxygen chamber. Not to mention remove my fillings, some of which date back to high school. Here I am, 66 years old & haven’t done any of this stuff. What’s wrong with me?

Nothing apparently, and you are lucky. If you had a disease that your doctor could not find a cure for, you would yourself be looking for the right solution. Naturally, some people would want to take advantage of such a search. Other people would want to help you. The resulting mish-mash would be what you would find during such a search. Not very different from MD’s either. Some are good, some are bad. Getting misdiagnosed, given the wrong medicine or surgery is not impossible. But chances are, you have been brainwashed from early childhood to believe that any MD can do no wrong. Let’s hope you come across no real reason to learn better…

Response:

Such symptoms only become redefined as an "illness", and the sufferer a "patient", when a person decides to seek medical advice, often just for reassurance that nothing serious is wrong. Thus the minor and usually self-limiting symptoms of the "worried well" dominate a lot of medical practice and also provide a fruitful area for charlatans. I’ve seen it estimated that around a third of health care dollars go to treating people with no clinical condition save anxiety (and, in many cases, some type of narcissism). I’d like to find a good reference for that estimate. It seems a bit high to me. But not at all crazy.

In Australia only 10-20% of the health care budget goes into general practice, where most such patients are seen. The rest goes into hospitals, drugs, and other services. It is not unlikely that a third of general practice involves the worried well. Add to that a significant percentage of the pharmaceutical budget, patient copayments for pharmaceuticals, and an expenditure on "alternatives" that now rivals expenditure on pharmaceuticals (but they are still too poor to do any research), and we are talking pretty big bucks. Peter Moran – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – le moo

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs? I find these alternative medicine/health forums so interesting as I never knew there was so much going on. It never occurred to me that my system could be "out of balance" or that my colon needed irrigating. Or that I should spend time in an oxygen chamber. Not to mention remove my fillings, some of which date back to high school. Here I am, 66 years old & haven’t done any of this stuff. What’s wrong with me? concatenated

Response:

I’m sure the gods will come back to punish me for my post & give me the first headache I’ve ever had in my life (really). BTW, while your all here…some gal on another alt. forum was sure she suffered from a "weak liver". What does that mean?

It probably means she fell for some sales pitch. I don’t think it’s a medically recognized term. The liver has so many functions that you have to be a lot more specific. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Response:

Sorry I don’t recall her exact question to the forum, only that she knew she had a weak liver; Milk Thistle, however, was the answer.

Response:

Sorry I don’t recall her exact question to the forum, only that she knew she had a weak liver; Milk Thistle, however, was the answer.

Toxins, no doubt. With the liver, it’s so often those darn toxins. Actually, milk thistle is a reasonable thing to take, as best I can determine. at least in terms of it being beneficial to the liver. It may also have uses as an adjunctive therapy in patients with liver cancer. Other analyses have found that it didn’t seem to do much, but didn’t hurt anything, either. It may help some with cirrhosis. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Response:

Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs?

Good question. Thee are two distinct groups: those who rely on science to reach medical decisions, and those who rely on anecdotes, sales pitches and tall tales. In the latter group, there are those who have real conditions such as multiple chemical sensitivity, etc. whoch they believe is a physicilogiacl condition. They deny that this is a psychosomoatic condition and, thus, refuse to seek therapy that actually treats their problems. Sometimes they get lucky and find an alternative method, which actually treats their psychosomatic symptoms with a psychosomatic treatment. Unfortunately, they do not actually treat their underlying psychological problems, but instead, push their treatment onto others. I find these alternative medicine/health forums so interesting as I never knew there was so much going on. It never occurred to me that my system could be "out of balance" or that my colon needed irrigating.

IOW, you never heard the likes and baloney of the AltSalesCreeps and feel better for it. Or that I should spend time in an oxygen chamber. Not to mention remove my fillings, some of which date back to high school.

Strange that you do not feel like you are falling apart. Here I am, 66 years old & haven’t done any of this stuff. What’s wrong with me?

Having common sense is not a problem.

Response:

I’ve seen it estimated that around a third of health care dollars go to treating people with no clinical condition save anxiety (and, in many cases, some type of narcissism). I’d like to find a good reference for that estimate. It seems a bit high to me. But not at all crazy. le moo

Response:

It works for 7 days and then has a week off?

Response:

Here I am, 66 years old & haven’t done any of this stuff. What’s wrong with me?

appears that many of the "worried well" are also judgemental in regards to religion.

Response:

Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs?

Not necessarily. David Wright is correct. It is also very relevant that the majority of healthy people regularly experience minor symptoms such as fatigue, headache, irritability, anxiety or mild depression, and mild musculoskeletal problems. See — http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band115/b115-4.html Such symptoms only become redefined as an "illness", and the sufferer a "patient", when a person decides to seek medical advice, often just for reassurance that nothing serious is wrong. Thus the minor and usually self-limiting symptoms of the "worried well" dominate a lot of medical practice and also provide a fruitful area for charlatans. One tactic of the latter is to make the sufferer feel inferior for having any symptoms at all. You introduce the notion of "welllness", a kind of "superhealth" wherein anything less than a state of euphoric exuberant well-being and longevity is a reflection of some kind of supplement deficiency or noxious influence that can only be rooted out by buying this stuff or following all the instructions in that book. Peter Moran

Response:

Who constitues this group? Are these the same as hypochrondiacs?

Pretty close, although the "worried well" aren’t necessarily sure they are sick, they’re just afraid they are. I find these alternative medicine/health forums so interesting as I never knew there was so much going on. It never occurred to me that my system could be "out of balance" or that my colon needed irrigating. Or that I should spend time in an oxygen chamber. Not to mention remove my fillings, some of which date back to high school. Here I am, 66 years old & haven’t done any of this stuff. What’s wrong with me?

Well, nothing that can’t be set to rights by reading enough fearmongering web sites. Pretty soon you’ll know that you’re being poisoned by aspartame, your fillings, and environmental toxins, and that only a very expensive regimen of MLM-sold herbs and vitamins will give you even a fighting chance of making it to your next birthday. Oh, right, and you’ll have to have your colon irrigated too. "We are the MLM-ers. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be spammed." — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Response:

There are no brain scans, blood tests, or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis

admin — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

| |: a diagnosis is a shorthand label encompassing a | given set of symptoms – why focus on whether the label is artificial in | nature, or that the causes of the symptom are unknown or not fully | understood? | Because the map is not the territory. Because telling me you have ADHD tells me nothing about your actual problem or your suffering.. Someone could meet the criteria for TS, ADHD, OCD, ODD, LD, MDD, GAD, SID, PG, HPD etc. and be diagnosed with all those dx’s, however, even by stringing together 12 dx’s doesn’t provide an accurate description of what that persons problem is, nor the suffering they endure. You have a problem that has a symptomology unique to you. I have a problem whose symptomology is unique to me. The symptoms of my problem which concern me most at the moment are those some would call ADHD. My problem in it’s entirity is different then your problem is in its entirity….because neuropsych problems are not amenable to discrete classifycation, cause we inherit these problems in a .committee like fashion, but the committe each person inherits is quite unique depending upon genetic loading of something like 20 polymorphic genes. So it’s better to focus on symptomology, rather than diagnosis when the diagnosis cannot possibly accurately describe any body’s actual problem. Especailly in forums where there are all these grandiose people who delude themselves the dx of ADHD is meaningful, do so because they falsely believe the dx accurately describes the symptoms of their problem…and then, they generalize their symptoms to the universal and insist the manner their ADHD presents is the way it presents universally, and THEN such a grandiose asshole calls someone like me a fucking troll on a ng for people with ADHD, when I have had symptoms of CLASSIC ADHD since I was toddler, I have the two most common co-occurring conditions of ADHD, Thyroid disease and TS, AND genetic studies puts the rate of ADHD at 80% in one parent whose child was dx’s with TS as my child was, and that 80% means me, cause my son’s father defintely doesn’t have ADHD. Add that together with the complete subjectiveness of diagnosis of ADHD, so if the clinician has an irrational like for you, you might find yourself diagnosed with DID instead of ADHD, and being harassed by some crackpot psyd with some sort of fixation on you, and some approach- avoidance problem, so his wishful thinking incites him to constantly deny the reality of your symptomology of what some call ADHd.. All manner of arguements that could all be avoided if we who have a problem where the symptomology of ADHd most impairs us, focused on our symptomology and ignored the inaccurate, obfuscating, distance, sepearating, reductionist subjective dx’s invented by clincicians as guidelines for clinicians to use amongst themselves to discuss us.

Response:

| Wrong, John Horses and Zebra’s are real, concrete objects. ADHD is just a made up name given to an artrificial social construct for symptomolgy some people wish perceived as a disorder or disease…a name created solely for the convenience of clinicians tasked with helping people with symptomology impariing them in some aspect of their life, and is ONLY to be used as a guideline by such clinicians….and NOTHING more. neuro=psychiatric differences are not amenable to being defined as disorder, diseases and syndromes because of the incredible uniqueness of genetics, as individual experience of every human being interactions with their environement.

Response:

| neuro=psychiatric differences are not amenable to being defined as disorder, diseases and syndromes because of the incredible uniqueness of genetics, as individual experience of every human being interactions with their environement.

And why is it that anyone should believe this particular piece of dogma? Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

| | | | | | neuro=psychiatric differences are not amenable to being defined as | disorder, diseases and syndromes . | | And why is it that anyone should believe this particular piece of | dogma? | Because the DSM or Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Of Mental Disorders as written by the American Psychiatric Association advises people of that truth. "Definition: Although this volume is titled the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Of Mental Disorders, the term mental disorder unfortunately implies a distinction between "mental" disorders and "physical" disorders that is a reductionistic anachronism of mind/body dualism. A compelling literature documents that there is much "physical" in "mental" disorders and much "mental" in "physical" disorders. The problem raised by the term "mental" disorders has been much clearer than its solution, and unfortunately, the term persist in the title of DSM-IV because we have not found an appropriate substitute. Moreover, although this manual provides a classification of mental disorders, it must be admitted that no definition adequately specifies precise boundaries for the concept of "mental disorder." http://www.prozactruth.com/mental_disorder.htm

Response:

ADHD is just a made up name given to an artrificial social construct for

Now, I want all the ASAD readers to note that *this* is how Linda gives support to people with ADHD. — Ann

Response:

that is used during diagnosis ADHD is just a made up name given to an artrificial social construct for Now, I want all the ASAD readers to note that *this* is how Linda gives support to people with ADHD.

YES! PLEASE DO NOTE THAT LINDA SUPPORTS all those LABELED as ADHD…by asserting the LABEL ADHD is one of many artificial constructs and MEANINGLESS Linda There’s a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin’ out of a boxcar door, You didn’t know it, you didn’t think it could be done, in the final end he won the wars After losin’ every battle. —Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Response:

Which Linda are YOU talking about, Linda?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – definite that is used during diagnosis ADHD is just a made up name given to an artrificial social construct for Now, I want all the ASAD readers to note that *this* is how Linda gives support to people with ADHD. YES! PLEASE DO NOTE THAT LINDA SUPPORTS all those LABELED as ADHD…by asserting the LABEL ADHD is one of many artificial constructs and MEANINGLESS Linda There’s a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin’ out of a boxcar door, You didn’t know it, you didn’t think it could be done, in the final end he won the wars After losin’ every battle. —Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Response:

| Wrong, John

Wrong, Lucky. Boy, wasn’t that *productive*? Horses and Zebra’s are real, concrete objects.

Ah, so you don’t understand the old saying about hearing hoofbeats, and looking for horses. It means that one should expect the common first, though one should also be ready for the uncommon as well; nevertheless, it’s a bad idea to assume the uncommon before checking out the common, since, by definition, one should expect to find the common more frequently. I hope this helps…. ADHD is just a made up name given to an artrificial social construct for symptomolgy some people wish perceived as a disorder or disease…a name created solely for the convenience of clinicians tasked with helping people with symptomology impariing them in some aspect of their life, and is ONLY to be used as a guideline by such clinicians….and NOTHING more.

ADHD is a name given to describe a set of real life problems that affect real, live, people. Glibly attempting to redefine the suffering of those people doesn’t change the fact that those people are, in fact, suffering. Once one acknowledges that there is suffering going on, one has two choices: to deny that there is suffering going on, or to accept that there is such. Once there is acceptance of a fact that’s as plain as day, to anyone who’s willing to open their metaphorical eyes, the question becomes one of "how does one alleviate that suffering?" Thankfully, today, there are answers to that question.

Response:

| | | | ADHD is a name given to describe a set of real life problems that | affect real, live, people. ADHD is a name given to symptomology whose etiology is unknown. ONLY those people having the symptoms where the physical disease causing the symptomology is unknown are diagnosed with ADHD and a "mental" disorder and only for so long as the physical cause of the symptomology is unknown. Before they discovered nutritional deficiencies caused pellagra, and there were STD like syphillis……those with unrecognized pellagra and syphillis comprised the majority of mental patients of their day… Once pellagra and syphillis were recognized and treatable as physical diseases……those with symptoms of it were no longer labeled as mentally disordered, but as having pellagra and syphillis. Same thing with symptomology of ADHD….whose symptoms can be caused by 100 different physical conditions, and will be attributed to such, and ONLY dx’d as ADHD where the physical cause isn’t known. Glibly attempting to redefine the suffering | of those people doesn’t change the fact that those people are, in | fact, suffering. I am about the last one in the world who would deny the symptomology some would call ADHD, and the suffering of the people with that symptomology. Taking issue with an artificial construct given for symptomology from unknown causes, for the convenience of clinicians, is NOT the same thing as denying the symptomology or the suffering of those with the symptomology.

Response:

ADHD is diagnosed by health professionals who form their opinion by observing a child’s behavior. There are no brain scans, blood tests, or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis.

What about SPECT scans? Does anyone out there have any first hand experience with these? Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah look up phrenology, it’s just as accurate. http://pages.britishlibrary.net/phrenology/ Thanks heavens there are "scientific " techniques like " Expanded Auditing" . This is a branch of Dianetics which uses New Era Dianetics spiritual technology in special ways for specific purposes. Some persons require Dianetics technology specially adapted to their individual requirements and this is delivered on Expanded Dianetics. While New Era Dianetics is very general in application, Expanded Dianetics is specifically tailored to the preclear

Need a Response

admin — Mon, 14 Jul 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I tell people that my doctor has said that I have to be eating this way because it is easy on the pancreas and liver so that I don’t die of pancreatic cancer or liver cancer. I tell them (this is true) that my grandfather died from pancreatic cancer. I also tell them (and this is true) that my blood tests have shown a propensity for these diseases.

That’s gotta be terrifying for you, Val. I’m glad you’ve found a way to likely avoid all that. Best wishes! Carol — 226/188.5/150 July Challenge Goal – 189 (YAY!) http://photos.yahoo.com/carol_arie Atkins since 1-26-2003 Type 2 Diabetic since 5-15-2001

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – EVERYONE asks how I am losing weight. After I tell them I am following a LC eating plan, their response is either, "As soon as you go off it you are going to gain all the weight back" (Isn’t that the same for any ‘diet’?) or "That really isn’t healthy" (Its healthier than being obese) or some variation of those two. I am tired of explaining how this is not a diet, it is a life style change, how I am aware of the fact that I will have to add carbs when I get closer to my goal, that I am taking viatmins, that I had my blood work done and will be following up on that after 3 months, yadda, yadda, yadda. Does anyone have a good one line response to the critics? Thanks in advance. D

I think people focus on the LC part and perhaps assume that we are somehow starving ourselves. Someone in this newsgroup had a good take on it and it’s proved th be somewhat useful. I just tell people that I’m eating the same amount of food, but mostly meats and veggies instead of mostly carbs. Not only that, but this has suppressed my appetite so I’m not going hungry (far from it) and I’m not missing all the snacks. I’m not a long timer on this (5 months), but I don’t find that the adjustments I’ve made are something that I can’t carry with me from now on. Mick LC since 2/15/2003 173/143/143

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – EVERYONE asks how I am losing weight. After I tell them I am following a LC eating plan, their response is either, "As soon as you go off it you are going to gain all the weight back" (Isn’t that the same for any ‘diet’?) or "That really isn’t healthy" (Its healthier than being obese) or some variation of those two. I am tired of explaining how this is not a diet, it is a life style change, how I am aware of the fact that I will have to add carbs when I get closer to my goal, that I am taking viatmins, that I had my blood work done and will be following up on that after 3 months, yadda, yadda, yadda. Does anyone have a good one line response to the critics? Thanks in advance. D I think people focus on the LC part and perhaps assume that we are somehow starving ourselves. Someone in this newsgroup had a good take on it and it’s proved th be somewhat useful. I just tell people that I’m eating the same amount of food, but mostly meats and veggies instead of mostly carbs. Not only that, but this has suppressed my appetite so I’m not going hungry (far from it) and I’m not missing all the snacks. I’m not a long timer on this (5 months), but I don’t find that the adjustments I’ve made are something that I can’t carry with me from now on. Mick LC since 2/15/2003 173/143/143

So, does this mean that you’ve found that the adjustments you’ve made are something that you can carry with you from now on? ;-) (Don’t mind me — I’m the king of double and tripple negatives.) — Bob M in CT

Response:

Does anyone have a good one line response to the critics?

I just say "I gave up sugar and foods that turn to sugar in the body. I eat alot more healthy vegetables and drink lots of water. " I usually get the deer in the headlights look or they think that sounds really healthy. Gloria in KC 196/171/145

Response:

announced in front of God and everybody: EVERYONE asks how I am losing weight. After I tell them I am following a LC eating plan, their response is either, "As soon as you go off it you are going to gain all the weight back" (Isn’t that the same for any ‘diet’?) or "That really isn’t healthy" (Its healthier than being obese) or some variation of those two.

So don’t tell them it’s low-carb. Say, "Oh, I’m eating healthier and getting more exercise" then change the subject. You’re not lying. There’s not law that says you owe people the details of what you do with your personal life — one can be vague without being rude. I usually find that approach handles most personal questions quite nicely. Dawn

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —– Original Message —– Newsgroups: alt.support.diet.low-carb Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 7:56 AM Unhealthy….please….and three bags of Oreos, two pounds of Hershey’s Kisses and 4 pints of Ben and Jerry’s a week is somehow healthier than LC. That and carrying an extra Backstreet Boy on my ass. — Wayne Crannell Atkins+ 10/27/01 250/140 ~ If you’re not gonna use that extra Backstreet Boy . . . . may I have him? Mariboo

Response:

"Val in Boise" wrote … I tell people that my doctor has said that I have to be eating this way because it is easy on the pancreas and liver

One of the things which attracted me to this WOE is that my father died of pancreatic cancer, and my mother has diabetes. Mind you, she also has gallstones, meaning there are about four things left she can eat without *something* blowing up. And when I decided I needed to lose weight (some would say better late than never!) I asked Mum which of the many, many diets she’s tried in her life worked the best and was easiest to stick to, and she said low carb. She was on a low carb diet for about a year in the early ’70s, but didn’t stick with it (despite the fact that it worked) because my father didn’t like it. So I have evidence that low carb works for someone with the closest I’m ever likely to find to my own metabolism, even if she didn’t stick with it. — Lexin www.redrosepress.co.uk www.livejournal.com/~lexin LC since 9 June 2003 (300/276/182)

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I tend to say that I’ve controlled my intake of sugars, starches, and empty calories.

How do you answer them should they be wise enough to realize that fat is empty Calories (and by definition, it is)? It contains no vitamins, and no minerals, and since most here are running away from protein as well, it usually constitutes more then 50% of the Calories in most people’s diet.

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Tell them that your body is intolerant of refined sugars and starches (this is true – when you eat them, you feel crappy, and you gain weight). I’m able to play the diabetes card. I guess I’m "fortunate" in that respect. I’ve been more forthright lately about saying I’m on Atkins, and I really haven’t had a problem. Not even with my doctor, although I waited to tell her until after I’d lost over 30 pounds.

Maybe I can play a "my grandfather is diabetic" card? — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music: http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

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I’m able to play the diabetes card. I guess I’m "fortunate" in that respect. I’ve been more forthright lately about saying I’m on Atkins, and I really haven’t had a problem. Not even with my doctor, although I waited to tell her until after I’d lost over 30 pounds. Maybe I can play a "my grandfather is diabetic" card?

If it’s Type 2 diabetes, you sure can. That stuff’s hereditary! Carol — 226/188.5/150 July Challenge Goal – 189 (YAY!) http://photos.yahoo.com/carol_arie Atkins since 1-26-2003 Type 2 Diabetic since 5-15-2001

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Maybe I can play a "my grandfather is diabetic" card? If it’s Type 2 diabetes, you sure can. That stuff’s hereditary!

It is, but my grandmother had my father with another man. But they don’t know that — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music: http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

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I tend to say that I’ve controlled my intake of sugars, starches, and empty calories. How do you answer them should they be wise enough to realize that fat is empty Calories (and by definition, it is)? It contains no vitamins, and no minerals, and since most here are running away from protein as well, it usually constitutes more then 50% of the Calories in most people’s diet.

Red meat contains no vitamins or minerals? Eggs contain no vitamins? True, fat alone has no vitamins or minerals. But who eats fat just by itself? All the meat we eat has some vitamins and minerals. The only "pure fat" I eat is some fish oil, flax seed oil, and olive oil, which are very minor amounts of fat for my diet. The rest of my fat is "natural" fat — eggs, milk products and meat. — Bob M in CT

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Maybe I can play a "my grandfather is diabetic" card? If it’s Type 2 diabetes, you sure can. That stuff’s hereditary! It is, but my grandmother had my father with another man. But they don’t know that

Damsel punches Archon – HARD! Carol — 226/188.5/150 July Challenge Goal – 189 (YAY!) http://photos.yahoo.com/carol_arie Atkins since 1-26-2003 Type 2 Diabetic since 5-15-2001

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Damsel punches Archon – HARD!

Didn’t I tell you this a long time ago when you told about your meds nad I told about that my grandfather uses insulin injections? — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music: http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

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Damsel punches Archon – HARD! Didn’t I tell you this a long time ago when you told about your meds nad I told about that my grandfather uses insulin injections?

Sorry, no. I’ve got next to no memory. That’s why a lot of my personal interaction is online. I can always read back and figure out what the heck I was in the middle of saying. Carol — 226/188.5/150 July Challenge Goal – 189 (YAY!) http://photos.yahoo.com/carol_arie Atkins since 1-26-2003 Type 2 Diabetic since 5-15-2001

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Red meat contains no vitamins or minerals? Eggs contain no vitamins? True, fat alone has no vitamins or minerals. But who eats fat just by

Protein yes, it does contain minerals (and some vitamins), no argument there, and I never argued against protein. Most of the advice doesn’t advocate the increase of protein, most advice advocates the decreasing of protein (fear of excess protein being turned to glucose), and tell people to increase fat (add oil, etc). So on one hand you have people stating they don’t eat empty Calories, yet that is exactly what they are doing by increasing percentage of fat Calories to excess. So if you look at RDA intake of most diets, you will note they are lacking, yet people are complaining that the US RDA (and Canadian RNI) amounts are to low. Go figure. itself? All the meat we eat has some vitamins and minerals. The only "pure fat" I eat is some fish oil, flax seed oil, and olive oil, which are very minor amounts of fat for my diet. The rest of my fat is "natural" fat — eggs, milk products and meat.

No argument about fat from food, but if the fat from food is an excessive percentage of total Calories, one will not receive adequate intake of all V/M, before their Calorie allowances are spent.

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Does anyone have a good one line response to the critics? I tend to say that I’ve controlled my intake of sugars, starches, and empty calories. People seem to relate to that a little more easily. I never hear anyone say "But you *need* sugar and white flour!". I don’t mention the word "Low Carb", because then people tend to automatically think "Atkins" (which I am not following), which (I know better, because i’ve read the book) to *them*, translates to "All meat".

If I’m talking to someone whom I don’t think will be open minded to low-carbing, this is what I do, especially those times when you just don’t want to get into it. However, I’ve been amazed by the number of people who are at least moderately well informed about low carb and don’t think it’s the root of all dietary evil. Martha — Begin where you are – but don’t end there.

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I get that frequently, as well. I usually say: 1) Do you realize that you are actually saying carbs DO make you fat? 2) How is cutting out fried foods and processed sugars from my diet unhealthy? Then I explain that my cholesterol droped 40 points, blood pressure went from high normal to normal and my immune system is such that, since starting this WOE, I’ve barley not more than a sniffle. Sounds pretty healthy to me. ADC 250/190/185

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EVERYONE asks how I am losing weight. After I tell them I am following a LC eating plan, their response is either, "As soon as you go off it you are going to gain all the weight back" (Isn’t that the same for any ‘diet’?) or "That really isn’t healthy" (Its healthier than being obese) or some variation of those two. I am tired of explaining how this is not a diet, it is a life style change, how I am aware of the fact that I will have to add carbs when I get closer to my goal, that I am taking viatmins, that I had my blood work done and will be following up on that after 3 months, yadda, yadda, yadda. Does anyone have a good one line response to the critics?

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I’d just say, "That’s nice. Excuse me." and walk away. Priscilla — Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum. (from topfive.com)

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I think absolutely the biggest misconception about LC maintenance is that it is some sort of freakish, twisted eating scheme involving pentagrams and sacrificing live chickens. (well, OK, maybe the second part, no offense to our Wiccan friends here By the time you get to maintenance, you are eating just about the same things as everyone else, and certainly MORE of the good stuff. These days I eat everything but bread, rice, potatoes, pasta, and sweet stuff. There are a very few fruits (apples, bananas, etc.) and vegetables (corn) I won’t eat, but everything else is fair game. Hell, I’m making haggis tonight using a little bit of oats and some other substitutes. I get about 50% of my calories from fat but never add fat just to get there, and none of that is evil, awful, nasty, spawn of Satan transfat. That leaves an awful lot of food, and all of it orders of magnitude better for me than the latest McConcoction fast-food non-sense. (I had a MacSalad last week, and the dressing they provided had 9 freaking grams of carbs for 2T!?!?! That’s insane.) Unhealthy….please….and three bags of Oreos, two pounds of Hershey’s Kisses and 4 pints of Ben and Jerry’s a week is somehow healthier than LC. That and carrying an extra Backstreet Boy on my ass. — Wayne Crannell Atkins+ 10/27/01 250/140

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1. "Why would I want to go off it?" 2. "I’m still trying to figure out what is not healthy." — Wayne Crannell Atkins+ 10/27/01 250/140

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The only real response for the critics is to take the weight off and keep it off for many years to come. Many people who lose weight low carbing *do* gain it all back on and then some. That includes many of the people who post here full of enthusiasm during their first year on the diet. Those in the first flush of enthusiasm for the diet underestimate how difficult it becomes to stay on it year after year. It has been my experience that when I stopped low carbing I regained weight very fast, even though I was eating at the same calorie levels I was eating at while maintaining a low carb weight loss. This is probably because of the nature of the metabolic changes that the body makes while in a prolonged state of low carbing which are similar to those made in a long term state of starvation. So the naysayers are not necessarily being stupid or negative when they raise that objection. The good news is that there are people who do low carb for years, maintain their weight losses, and improve their health. You can be one of them, though the journey is challenging and you’ll experience many twists and turns as the years unfold. I’m still low carbing almost 5 years since starting. I’m finishing up 4 years of low carbing, with one year off in the middle. Right now, my body fat percentage is well within the "normal" range. I’m told by reliable sources that my figure is "hot." I’m going to be 55 next week, but I’m wearing clothing I bought in the "teenage" section of the store. My diabetes is in such good control that my doctor sometimes wonders if I really WAS diabetic. (I was.) That kind of success, rather than anything you can say, is what will convince people of the healthiness of your diet. Arguing is a waste of time. — Jenny 168.5/141 9/1998 – 8/2001 and 11/10/02 – Now http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean How to calculate your need for protein * How much people really lose each month * Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for Hunger Cravings * Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low Carb Treats * Should You Count that Low Impact Carb? * Curing Ketobreath * Exercise Starting from Zero * NEW! Do Starch Blockers Work?

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RANT: People who try to undermine you

admin — Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

This weekend, I spent the day with my MIL. Now you should know that she is very aware of my husband and my’s way of eating. When we go to her house she trys to make sure that there are things we can eat. She doesn’t fully understand all the details, but she trys. This is a woman who is always pushing food on people, including us although she is also the first person to not-so-subtly hint that we really need to lose weight. So I was with her this weekend. We were discussing places to eat dinner and I nixed on place b/c I knew there was nothing there I could eat. There were others in the car who asked me a few questions about this way of eating. Anyway, about 10 minutes later, we stop at this sweet shop b/c they needed to pick some things up. My feet hurt from a long day and I didn’t need the tempation so I stayed in the car. They weren’t going to be long. Lo and behold, my MIL came back to the car with a "gift" for me — one of the desserts in the sweet shop. I opened my mouth to tell her I couldn’t eat it, but then shut it again cause I knew she meant well, but PLEASE! The important thing is that I brought it home, let it sit on the counter ALL NIGHT without hearing it calling my name and then brought it to work the next day and gave it to one of my co-workers. I’m proud of myself for not eating it, but I’m very frustrated by this. My husband was upset that I didn’t give it back to her and maybe I should have, but I just didn’t feel it was worth making a big deal, but deep down it makes me angry. Add to it, that after a couple month period of on-again, off-again, I am now fully re-committed. However, the first week on induction, I lost 2 pounds. Not bad right? Well, without changing anything, I put them back on the next week. After this third week, I took them off again. THREE WEEKS on induction and I’ve netted a loss of 2 measly pounds. Very frustrating. I’m not stopping, but it sure was part of my willpower in not eating the dessert. Thanks for ‘listening’, Piglet 180.5/178.5/140

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This weekend, I spent the day with my MIL. Now you should know that she is very aware of my husband and my’s way of eating. When we go to her house she trys to make sure that there are things we can eat. She doesn’t fully understand all the details, but she trys. This is a woman who is always pushing food on people, including us although she is also the first person to not-so-subtly hint that we really need to lose weight. So I was with her this weekend. We were discussing places to eat dinner and I nixed on place b/c I knew there was nothing there I could eat. There were others in the car who asked me a few questions about this way of eating. Anyway, about 10 minutes later, we stop at this sweet shop b/c they needed to pick some things up. My feet hurt from a long day and I didn’t need the tempation so I stayed in the car. They weren’t going to be long. Lo and behold, my MIL came back to the car with a "gift" for me — one of the desserts in the sweet shop. I opened my mouth to tell her I couldn’t eat it, but then shut it again cause I knew she meant well, but PLEASE! The important thing is that I brought it home, let it sit on the counter ALL NIGHT without hearing it calling my name and then brought it to work the next day and gave it to one of my co-workers. I’m proud of myself for not eating it, but I’m very frustrated by this. My husband was upset that I didn’t give it back to her and maybe I should have, but I just didn’t feel it was worth making a big deal, but deep down it makes me angry. Add to it, that after a couple month period of on-again, off-again, I am now fully re-committed. However, the first week on induction, I lost 2 pounds. Not bad right? Well, without changing anything, I put them back on the next week. After this third week, I took them off again. THREE WEEKS on induction and I’ve netted a loss of 2 measly pounds. Very frustrating. I’m not stopping, but it sure was part of my willpower in not eating the dessert. Thanks for ‘listening’, Piglet 180.5/178.5/140

I know just what you mean. Went out with a guy tonight to a movie, he knows I’m LC-ing and said he’d done it before and it worked for him, but he was all "Are you sure you don’t want nachos or some candy?" I was like, hello, do you know what a carbohydrate is?? I said I could eat a hotdog without the bun, but I don’t like movie theater hot dogs. He really wanted to buy me something though, so I let him get me a diet coke. I was pretty hungry during the movie, should have eaten before going, but I had my leftover steak waiting for me at home, which I just ate. Yum. — -Michelle Levin (Luna) http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna

Response:

Hi, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This weekend, I spent the day with my MIL. Now you should know that she is very aware of my husband and my’s way of eating. When we go to her house she trys to make sure that there are things we can eat. She doesn’t fully understand all the details, but she trys. This is a woman who is always pushing food on people, including us although she is also the first person to not-so-subtly hint that we really need to lose weight. So I was with her this weekend. We were discussing places to eat dinner and I nixed on place b/c I knew there was nothing there I could eat. There were others in the car who asked me a few questions about this way of eating. Anyway, about 10 minutes later, we stop at this sweet shop b/c they needed to pick some things up. My feet hurt from a long day and I didn’t need the tempation so I stayed in the car. They weren’t going to be long. Lo and behold, my MIL came back to the car with a "gift" for me — one of the desserts in the sweet shop. I opened my mouth to tell her I couldn’t eat it, but then shut it again cause I knew she meant well, but PLEASE! The important thing is that I brought it home, let it sit on the counter ALL NIGHT without hearing it calling my name and then brought it to work the next day and gave it to one of my co-workers. I’m proud of myself for not eating it, but I’m very frustrated by this. My husband was upset that I didn’t give it back to her and maybe I should have, but I just didn’t feel it was worth making a big deal, but deep down it makes me angry. Add to it, that after a couple month period of on-again, off-again, I am now fully re-committed. However, the first week on induction, I lost 2 pounds. Not bad right? Well, without changing anything, I put them back on the next week. After this third week, I took them off again. THREE WEEKS on induction and I’ve netted a loss of 2 measly pounds. Very frustrating. I’m not stopping, but it sure was part of my willpower in not eating the dessert.

Some people show people they love/care about them with food. It can be the result of living with role models who did the same thing. Heck, *I’m* one of those people. Just love the woman for who she is, explain as the opportunity presents itself what you’re doing and keep on doing what’s good for you. Take care, Carmen

Response:

Some people show people they love/care about them with food. It can be the result of living with role models who did the same thing. Heck, *I’m* one of those people.

I am to as long as it doesn’t involve a lot of cooking. Miss J (Hamilton, Ontario) 374/328/299 (first goal)

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I do so understand about the people who try to undermine you. Like my mother. She’s in her eighties and remembers this diet from 30 years ago, so she knows what its about. But then she plays bridge with a friend of hers who is on Atkins, eating a sandwich. "How can you at a sandwich on Atkins?" she asked. Back in the day, there were no commercial Atkins products. So this woman dieter tells my mother about Atkins bread. So she brings home a loaf of bread. So, over the phone, she tells me about this loaf of bread she bought. So as I’m driving home, I’m thinking….bread. I could have a sandwich. Toast maybe. Crumbs for cooking. It turns out to be wheat bread. About thirty gazillion carbs a slice. I guess it is better than the vat of croissants, and the crate of chocolate Crispy Cremes she brought home the day after i told her I was ON this diet. And then there’s my son, who keeps a tin and hands me a 1 carb chocolate velamints for my sweet cravings.

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– I feel like I’m disappearing – getting smaller every day, but I look in the mirror – I’m bigger in every way

this is so familar to me. You have all rights to be angry, very angry. I cringe and feel like people never hear what I say, because this same thing has happened to me many many times. People that know that I’m celiac and have got allergies but still give me treats, seriously I can’t imagine that they are that ignorant maybe they just never listen or take me seriously, I have no clue. The last event and a very sad one, was at my job, my boss and the staff gave me chocolates with almonds & waffles (sp?), that type that has both gluten, dairy and nuts – all three that make me severily ill. What did I do? well my disappointement was so big, I accepted and gave it to my friends, but later i sent a letter thanking again (it was christmas) and told unfortunately i couldn’t eat those because I have that disease but thanks anyway. The creepy part is that they _ALL, everyone from my job knew that i had celiac, heck even the kids knew that i couldn’t eat their lunches at school. It’s something that i will never forget, people can care less about what other people say, even if it’s a disease. How many times i’ve got offered no-no foods and had to show them my diagnosis paper or bracelet so they would maybe understand that I can’t eat a tiny bit of that cake and so on. It’s like not accepting their food means not accepting them into your life, their friendship and so on. CREEPY! So… well you have got my support. I’m just as angry as you are. But you did the right thing. Take care

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I must be one of the lucky ones. Whenever my husband and I go to visit his parents, they *insist* that I go to the grocery store with them so they can buy me the foods I am allowed to eat. We sometimes have little squabbles about who should pay for it, but they always win. In fact, my FIL made dinner for us last weekend while we were visiting and made an extra special plate of veggies for me to replace the potatoes and beans that he was making for everyone else. I think, perhaps, they understand it because I have sat down with them and explained, in great detail, why I eat LC. For me, it’s not so much losing weight as for the way I feel for not keeping high amounts of carbs in my diet. They just seem to "get it" and respect it. I have to say, it’s a lovely feeling. But then my in-laws are amazing people, so I shouldn’t really expect anything less. jules

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But then my in-laws are amazing people, so I shouldn’t really expect anything less. jules

Wonderful, isn’t it? My in-laws are also terrific people who support me strongly – as I told my MIL when we visited them at Easter, when we lose them (they’re in their 70s) I’m going to miss her as much as I do my own Mum. As an example, she bought chocolate eggs for everyone at Easter – except me. For *me* she bought a bag of dry-roasted, unsalted macadamia nuts, and taped an ‘Easter Bunny’ to the bag. She knows I like plenty of veggies, but only lightly steamed (instead of the heavily boiled and salted ones she prefers) so she cooked *two* lots of veggies each time instead of expecting me to eat the ones cooked to her taste. If/when I become a MIL, I’m using her as my role model! Aramanth

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Hi, Piglet, I think you did the right thing. No one’s feelings truly got hurt and you were able to resist the pastry being in your home. Big pat on the back for you… smiles, Elise

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:: — :: I feel like I’m disappearing – getting smaller every day, :: but I look in the mirror – I’m bigger in every way

Response:

Hi, Some people show people they love/care about them with food. It can be the result of living with role models who did the same thing. Heck, *I’m* one of those people. I am to as long as it doesn’t involve a lot of cooking.

Response:

| But then my in-laws are amazing people, so I shouldn’t really expect anything less. | | | jules | | Wonderful, isn’t it? | | My in-laws are also terrific people who support me strongly – as I | told my MIL when we visited them at Easter, when we lose them (they’re | in their 70s) I’m going to miss her as much as I do my own Mum. | | As an example, she bought chocolate eggs for everyone at Easter – | except me. For *me* she bought a bag of dry-roasted, unsalted | macadamia nuts, and taped an ‘Easter Bunny’ to the bag. | What a star! Extra bonus points for throwing in the bunny! Why can’t all in-laws be like ours? :) jules

Response:

I’m such a carb addict I would eat the dough before it was cooked. Miss J (Hamilton, Ontario) 374/328/299 (first goal)

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And then there’s my son, who keeps a tin and hands me a 1 carb chocolate velamints for my sweet cravings.

Those are soooooooo good! :-) Miss J (Hamilton, Ontario) 374/328/299 (first goal)

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This is the way I get around things like that: This is really true though not quite so serious. I tell them that my triglycerides are so high that I could go into pancreatitis and eventually have pancreatic cancer or liver cancer. I tell them that my pancreas is very very inadequate to handle sweets and carbs so it is a life-or-death thing. Apparently no one in my family wants to kill me so they sit up and listen. It’s not that I WANT , it’s that I MUST. I hope this helps a little. It is really true. It’s my license to tell them it will happen immediately. Pancreatitis is a very scary disease. Val in Boise

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I agree. The velamints sit by the computer for those ‘need a chocolate fix’ times. Finding Soy Slender Chocolate has also been a Godsend. Hubby says it tastes like Yoohoo! Both will definitely be on my shopping lists in the future! — Kelly 270/240.5/199 for now Start Date : April 21, 2003 July Challenge Goal : 237.5 : And then there’s my son, who keeps a tin and hands me a 1 carb chocolate : velamints for my sweet cravings. : : Those are soooooooo good! :-)

Response:

Hi,

I enjoyed the way the dough or batter tastes, but only ever tasted a bit to ensure it tasted right before baking. The finished product was my nemesis. :-) Take care, Carmen

Response:

announced in front of God and everybody: Hi, Some people show people they love/care about them with food. It can be the result of living with role models who did the same thing. Heck, *I’m* one of those people. I am to as long as it doesn’t involve a lot of cooking.

This is one of the odd things I’m struggling with, the psychology of making and giving food. I trained at a culinary academy and I used to be a pastry chef. Having finally recovered from several years of restaurant burn-out, I genuinely enjoy putting my skills to work — especially baking, ESPECIALLY dessert-making. And I love the positive response I get from sharing a kick-ass pan of brownies or lemon bars or a Chocolate Bourbon Pecan Torte. But eating the way I do now and knowing the negative effects of refined sugar and flour, creating desserts for other people makes me feel like a drug pusher these days. "Here … have a little crack. MMMMmmm, yummy, ain’t it? Have seconds! Bwah-hahahahahaha!" I’ve managed to channel some of that energy into being creative with marinades and grilling techniques, egg dishes and all-the-stuff-you-can-do-with-the-miracle-of-cream-cheese, but I do battle that desire to bring a box of perfect Snickerdoodles to game night with friends, or bake a phenomenal coconut cream cake for a party. I’ve been tinkering with a Splenda-sweetened version of my flourless chocolate/bourbon torte and I make a mean SF mousse …. but dammit, I love traditional baking! Ah well. There’s always trade-offs, eh? Dawn

Response:

and everybody: I must be one of the lucky ones.

I think I am, too. I went to an in-law function this past weekend. I don’t really know them well, and as a rule I don’t talk about what I eat or why I eat this way. In fact, my husband’s cousin — a chiropractor and personal trainer — was talking very passionately about Atkins and low-carb with another family member and I didn’t join in, because I just don’t like talking about my diet. I just didn’t eat chips and dip, choosing celery and a couple of cherry tomatoes instead. No one cared. When the pot luck supper was served, I ate meat and veggies, sampled just enough of my father-in-law’s baked beans to be polite, and said, "no thanks" to the bowls of berry cobbler and ice cream that were passed around for dessert. Nobody cared. Or if they did, they didn’t say anything. I’ve found that most people accept a polite, smiling "no thank you" without any explanation where food is concerned. If I were to bring up Atkins and low-carb myself, then I shouldn’t be surprised if I end up defending it … so I don’t bring it up. I just don’t eat the stuff that I don’t eat, and keep my reasons to myself. Amazing how well that works most of the time. Dawn

Response:

Hi, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – announced in front of God and everybody: Hi, Some people show people they love/care about them with food. It can be the result of living with role models who did the same thing. Heck, *I’m* one of those people. I am to as long as it doesn’t involve a lot of cooking.

True enough. I view the goodies differently than you do though. They’re bad for *me* – that’s been shown. The people around me have different genetics, and they can have some without doing damage. It’s something I do well, others enjoy the results and I enjoy the process of making and giving so I still do it. I’ve tried making up some low carb goodie recipes, but the ingredients have different properties and the results just didn’t cut it. Very few can stand on their own, most coming across as a pseudo-whatever. The savories never caught my imagination either, so low carb savories leave me cold too. It was always the chocolate torte with Kirsch soaked cherries alternated with chocolate mousse between the layers cut impossibly thin and decorated with chocolate shavings and handmade chocolate wedges stood up on their sides at an angle in a pinwheel on top that did it for me. The more fiddly it was the better I liked it. Sometimes I resent the curtailment of that sort of thing, but that isn’t too often. :-) Take care, Carmen

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uh hu, if i don’t have the right to be angry about people and my disease, well… i guess you are wrong. Try walking in my shoes

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It really seems like a waste of energy to get angry about this….that is just how people are…better to get used to it and deal with it. YOU and you alone control what goes into your body, so as long as they aren’t stuff it down your throat, where is the harm? Leave the anger for someone else…. uh hu, if i don’t have the right to be angry about people and my disease, well… i guess you are wrong. Try walking in my shoes

he didn’t say you didn’t have the right. he said it seemed like a waste of energy. there’s a world of difference there.

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I enjoyed the way the dough or batter tastes, but only ever tasted a bit to ensure it tasted right before baking. The finished product was my nemesis. :-)

Seriously I would have *half* the batter eaten before it even made it to the baking pans and then finish the rest off after it was cooked. Miss J (Hamilton, Ontario) 374/328/299 (first goal)

Response:

Hi, I enjoyed the way the dough or batter tastes, but only ever tasted a bit to ensure it tasted right before baking. The finished product was my nemesis. :-) Seriously I would have *half* the batter eaten before it even made it to the baking pans and then finish the rest off after it was cooked.

You *did* have a dough/batter jones going. Wow. Good thing you found low-carb. Especially now that you can go into any grocery store and buy rolls of premade cookie dough. (A concept I don’t really understand. If you don’t have the 10 to 15 minutes it takes to make a batch of dough you don’t have the time

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It really seems like a waste of energy to get angry about this….that is just how people are…better to get used to it and deal with it. YOU and you alone control what goes into your body, so as long as they aren’t stuff it down your throat, where is the harm? Leave the anger for someone else…. uh hu, if i don’t have the right to be angry about people and my disease, well… i guess you are wrong. Try walking in my shoes he didn’t say you didn’t have the right. he said it seemed like a waste of energy. there’s a world of difference there.

well then i think that should be addressed to the OP, not to me, because you know i was just trying to be sympathetic to her, not expecting to get a lesson of text interpretation from you there is a world of difference between being on LC due aesthetic reasons and having people annoying you about eating forbidden foods and between being sick and just being understood that a little bite will really hurt. That’s what i meant about getting angry. Sure may be a waste of time, but again try walking in my shoes and see if you wouldn’t get upset. Well the OP got upset, made a whole vent thread because she have the right, but sure, i don’t have the right to whine. Typical of people

Response:

friend in tragedy

admin — Fri, 16 May 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

suggestions?

do what your heart tells you to do. — astri

Response:

Well put, astri. trill, I think it is perfectly okay that you can’t be friends with her but that you hurt for her and want to express that visibly to her. Domino – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – suggestions? do what your heart tells you to do. — astri

Response:

Dear trill – I believe that sending some form of expression of consolation for her grief is both an acceptable and kind gesture – I do not think it is inappropriate. I can certainly understand being sorry for someone else’s grief and pain, even if one cannot be friends with that person. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is actually about someone i know, not code for being about me, okay? and i’m going to spoiler it, because it is heavy with sadness. i can’t even believe it is happening. and then when i think of how terribly it affects me, just knowing about it, and then think about how much more tragic many people’s lives are in the rest of the world, i am overwhelmed with the sadness of life. and i am ashamed of myself for not being able to hold up under the stress and duress of my life, which is not even worth mentioning when i think about what so many others experience in war and induced famine and natrural disaster. well, time for the spoiler what’s below is not splatted x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x I know this woman because she is the life partner of another woman with whom i was friends before they met each other. now the’ve been together for about 6 or 7 yrs. about 4 yrs ago they had a wedding ceremony and bought a house together. never liked the woman my friend married. i’ll call her lulu. she’s a drama queen, bossy, pushy when she can’t be bossy, and a know-it-all most especially when her ignorance is shining. and she’s done some seriously nasty stuff to me that i’ve reported on here, over the years. but never mind that. recently she acted out at me and i decided it wasn’t worth it to me to keep spending time with her. i talked to her partner, my old friend, and explained my reasons and apologized and said that i’d understand if she wanted to stop being friends with me. but, amazingly, she said she wanted to continue our friendship, and she told me that i am not the first of her friends to come to her this way about lulu; that she maintains an entire social life seperately from lulu. but here’s the rub: everybody in lulu’s family is dying. about 2 yrs. ago one of her 3 sisters learned she had an inoperable brain tumor. she’s barely alive now, surrounded by hospice, and everybody keeps waiting for her to be out of her misery. about a year before that another one of lulu’s 3 sisters died of a heart attack. right after the brain tumor sister was dxed, the 3rd sister was told she had liver cancer, but they performed surgery, taking away some of her liver with the tumore, and telling her that it looked like she’d make it past the 5 yr mark. only, instead she developed sepsis after a blood transfusion and died suddenly. then, last night lulu got a middle-of-the-night call from a family member and heard it’s not soozy (brain tumor sister). instead it was her oldest brother. (big family — 4 sister, counting lulu, and 3 brothers.) my friend called to tell me the latest news, this afternoon. i wept when i heard it. i don’t even like lulu, but it didn’t matter. it just seemed like way too much for anyone to bear all at once. i’m thinking of sending a card and some flowers or something. i’ll never be able to be her friend, but still, i genuinely feel this ovewhelming grief for her. suggestions? trill

Response:

this is actually about someone i know, not code for being about me, okay? and i’m going to spoiler it, because it is heavy with sadness. i can’t even believe it is happening. and then when i think of how terribly it affects me, just knowing about it, and then think about how much more tragic many people’s lives are in the rest of the world, i am overwhelmed with the sadness of life. and i am ashamed of myself for not being able to hold up under the stress and duress of my life, which is not even worth mentioning when i think about what so many others experience in war and induced famine and natrural disaster. well, time for the spoiler what’s below is not splatted x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x I know this woman because she is the life partner of another woman with whom i was friends before they met each other. now the’ve been together for about 6 or 7 yrs. about 4 yrs ago they had a wedding ceremony and bought a house together. never liked the woman my friend married. i’ll call her lulu. she’s a drama queen, bossy, pushy when she can’t be bossy, and a know-it-all most especially when her ignorance is shining. and she’s done some seriously nasty stuff to me that i’ve reported on here, over the years. but never mind that. recently she acted out at me and i decided it wasn’t worth it to me to keep spending time with her. i talked to her partner, my old friend, and explained my reasons and apologized and said that i’d understand if she wanted to stop being friends with me. but, amazingly, she said she wanted to continue our friendship, and she told me that i am not the first of her friends to come to her this way about lulu; that she maintains an entire social life seperately from lulu. but here’s the rub: everybody in lulu’s family is dying. about 2 yrs. ago one of her 3 sisters learned she had an inoperable brain tumor. she’s barely alive now, surrounded by hospice, and everybody keeps waiting for her to be out of her misery. about a year before that another one of lulu’s 3 sisters died of a heart attack. right after the brain tumor sister was dxed, the 3rd sister was told she had liver cancer, but they performed surgery, taking away some of her liver with the tumore, and telling her that it looked like she’d make it past the 5 yr mark. only, instead she developed sepsis after a blood transfusion and died suddenly. then, last night lulu got a middle-of-the-night call from a family member and heard it’s not soozy (brain tumor sister). instead it was her oldest brother. (big family — 4 sister, counting lulu, and 3 brothers.) my friend called to tell me the latest news, this afternoon. i wept when i heard it. i don’t even like lulu, but it didn’t matter. it just seemed like way too much for anyone to bear all at once. i’m thinking of sending a card and some flowers or something. i’ll never be able to be her friend, but still, i genuinely feel this ovewhelming grief for her. suggestions? trill

Response:

thanks every body for responding to this. after i wrote th e rest of this post i realized that i should be spoilering everything below this because it is all and only about sadness and despair and not knowing how to make "it" or if i should try. O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O i feel extremely isolated. anyway, will send something to say my feelings of sorrow to the woman, but then makes me think that only thing that anyone only reason that anyone ever botheres to say anything to me is like that. because i am pretty much totally isolated now, except for the cyber social life of asd, and very afrai d that it won’t be enough to sustain me. i’m barely able to get up now. just before i landed here at asd i got email from someone for whom i care deeply but with whom the friendship has always been up and down, like way up and way down and never knowing when i’m going to trip and fall or the safty belt will break and i’ll fly out of the roller coaster. never know. never did know. but till, realizing how isolated i wsa getting tried to reach out to hr and first got welcomed but then rejected so sie would do the same for me, tell me hir sorrow about how i am with this physical sickiness and some of the other problems, but no couldn’t be my friend, and well, see, i dunno, but i think that hurts worse than just not having contact. so it is confusing. but i’m confused about everything now . got dx. have to start on this heavy drug regimen. very scary any way i look at it. and look around and no friends, nobody to go to a movie with, nobody to talk on the phone with, nobody to sit in the lving room or walk the dog with, nobody to share a meal with… just me and potato. and i feel i am failing potato. and i’m scared of myself now. too scared to get up in morning and too scared to eat properly and too scared to do the minimum of chores to make house healthy and too scared to do anything. too scared. sorry, this is a bad one. i better go up and spioler trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear trill – I believe that sending some form of expression of consolation for her grief is both an acceptable and kind gesture – I do not think it is inappropriate. I can certainly understand being sorry for someone else’s grief and pain, even if one cannot be friends with that person. Beauty. this is actually about someone i know, not code for being about me, okay? and i’m going to spoiler it, because it is heavy with sadness. i can’t even believe it is happening. and then when i think of how terribly it affects me, just knowing about it, and then think about how much more tragic many people’s lives are in the rest of the world, i am overwhelmed with the sadness of life. and i am ashamed of myself for not being able to hold up under the stress and duress of my life, which is not even worth mentioning when i think about what so many others experience in war and induced famine and natrural disaster. well, time for the spoiler what’s below is not splatted x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x I know this woman because she is the life partner of another woman with whom i was friends before they met each other. now the’ve been together for about 6 or 7 yrs. about 4 yrs ago they had a wedding ceremony and bought a house together. never liked the woman my friend married. i’ll call her lulu. she’s a drama queen, bossy, pushy when she can’t be bossy, and a know-it-all most especially when her ignorance is shining. and she’s done some seriously nasty stuff to me that i’ve reported on here, over the years. but never mind that. recently she acted out at me and i decided it wasn’t worth it to me to keep spending time with her. i talked to her partner, my old friend, and explained my reasons and apologized and said that i’d understand if she wanted to stop being friends with me. but, amazingly, she said she wanted to continue our friendship, and she told me that i am not the first of her friends to come to her this way about lulu; that she maintains an entire social life seperately from lulu. but here’s the rub: everybody in lulu’s family is dying. about 2 yrs. ago one of her 3 sisters learned she had an inoperable brain tumor. she’s barely alive now, surrounded by hospice, and everybody keeps waiting for her to be out of her misery. about a year before that another one of lulu’s 3 sisters died of a heart attack. right after the brain tumor sister was dxed, the 3rd sister was told she had liver cancer, but they performed surgery, taking away some of her liver with the tumore, and telling her that it looked like she’d make it past the 5 yr mark. only, instead she developed sepsis after a blood transfusion and died suddenly. then, last night lulu got a middle-of-the-night call from a family member and heard it’s not soozy (brain tumor sister). instead it was her oldest brother. (big family — 4 sister, counting lulu, and 3 brothers.) my friend called to tell me the latest news, this afternoon. i wept when i heard it. i don’t even like lulu, but it didn’t matter. it just seemed like way too much for anyone to bear all at once. i’m thinking of sending a card and some flowers or something. i’ll never be able to be her friend, but still, i genuinely feel this ovewhelming grief for her. suggestions? trill

Response:

Go ahead, it’s a nice gesture. If she doesn’t seem to understand nor appreciate the gesture from you, I’d advise just letting that go and not take it personally. SofT Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is actually about someone i know, not code for being about me, okay? and i’m going to spoiler it, because it is heavy with sadness. i can’t even believe it is happening. and then when i think of how terribly it affects me, just knowing about it, and then think about how much more tragic many people’s lives are in the rest of the world, i am overwhelmed with the sadness of life. and i am ashamed of myself for not being able to hold up under the stress and duress of my life, which is not even worth mentioning when i think about what so many others experience in war and induced famine and natrural disaster. well, time for the spoiler what’s below is not splatted x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x I know this woman because she is the life partner of another woman with whom i was friends before they met each other. now the’ve been together for about 6 or 7 yrs. about 4 yrs ago they had a wedding ceremony and bought a house together. never liked the woman my friend married. i’ll call her lulu. she’s a drama queen, bossy, pushy when she can’t be bossy, and a know-it-all most especially when her ignorance is shining. and she’s done some seriously nasty stuff to me that i’ve reported on here, over the years. but never mind that. recently she acted out at me and i decided it wasn’t worth it to me to keep spending time with her. i talked to her partner, my old friend, and explained my reasons and apologized and said that i’d understand if she wanted to stop being friends with me. but, amazingly, she said she wanted to continue our friendship, and she told me that i am not the first of her friends to come to her this way about lulu; that she maintains an entire social life seperately from lulu. but here’s the rub: everybody in lulu’s family is dying. about 2 yrs. ago one of her 3 sisters learned she had an inoperable brain tumor. she’s barely alive now, surrounded by hospice, and everybody keeps waiting for her to be out of her misery. about a year before that another one of lulu’s 3 sisters died of a heart attack. right after the brain tumor sister was dxed, the 3rd sister was told she had liver cancer, but they performed surgery, taking away some of her liver with the tumore, and telling her that it looked like she’d make it past the 5 yr mark. only, instead she developed sepsis after a blood transfusion and died suddenly. then, last night lulu got a middle-of-the-night call from a family member and heard it’s not soozy (brain tumor sister). instead it was her oldest brother. (big family — 4 sister, counting lulu, and 3 brothers.) my friend called to tell me the latest news, this afternoon. i wept when i heard it. i don’t even like lulu, but it didn’t matter. it just seemed like way too much for anyone to bear all at once. i’m thinking of sending a card and some flowers or something. i’ll never be able to be her friend, but still, i genuinely feel this ovewhelming grief for her. suggestions? trill

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Response:

This isn’t to the topic that you wrote about right here, trill, but I meant to warn you: please remember if you *do* decide to make some gesture toward this woman that you are potentially setting yourself in a position to be hurt if she rejects the gesture, ignores it, whatever – unless you tell yourself for real at the outset that it is about what *you* want to do, and not about how she will respond (or not). Think about whether you are prepared to handle any of the full range of possibilities that any gesture of yours might incur – then go forward, based on your conclusions. You don’t want to be asking for more trouble. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks every body for responding to this. after i wrote th e rest of this post i realized that i should be spoilering everything below this because it is all and only about sadness and despair and not knowing how to make "it" or if i should try. O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O i feel extremely isolated. anyway, will send something to say my feelings of sorrow to the woman, but then makes me think that only thing that anyone only reason that anyone ever botheres to say anything to me is like that. because i am pretty much totally isolated now, except for the cyber social life of asd, and very afrai d that it won’t be enough to sustain me. i’m barely able to get up now. just before i landed here at asd i got email from someone for whom i care deeply but with whom the friendship has always been up and down, like way up and way down and never knowing when i’m going to trip and fall or the safty belt will break and i’ll fly out of the roller coaster. never know. never did know. but till, realizing how isolated i wsa getting tried to reach out to hr and first got welcomed but then rejected so sie would do the same for me, tell me hir sorrow about how i am with this physical sickiness and some of the other problems, but no couldn’t be my friend, and well, see, i dunno, but i think that hurts worse than just not having contact. so it is confusing. but i’m confused about everything now . got dx. have to start on this heavy drug regimen. very scary any way i look at it. and look around and no friends, nobody to go to a movie with, nobody to talk on the phone with, nobody to sit in the lving room or walk the dog with, nobody to share a meal with… just me and potato. and i feel i am failing potato. and i’m scared of myself now. too scared to get up in morning and too scared to eat properly and too scared to do the minimum of chores to make house healthy and too scared to do anything. too scared. sorry, this is a bad one. i better go up and spioler trill Dear trill – I believe that sending some form of expression of consolation for her grief is both an acceptable and kind gesture – I do not think it is inappropriate. I can certainly understand being sorry for someone else’s grief and pain, even if one cannot be friends with that person. Beauty. this is actually about someone i know, not code for being about me, okay? and i’m going to spoiler it, because it is heavy with sadness. i can’t even believe it is happening. and then when i think of how terribly it affects me, just knowing about it, and then think about how much more tragic many people’s lives are in the rest of the world, i am overwhelmed with the sadness of life. and i am ashamed of myself for not being able to hold up under the stress and duress of my life, which is not even worth mentioning when i think about what so many others experience in war and induced famine and natrural disaster. well, time for the spoiler what’s below is not splatted x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x I know this woman because she is the life partner of another woman with whom i was friends before they met each other. now the’ve been together for about 6 or 7 yrs. about 4 yrs ago they had a wedding ceremony and bought a house together. never liked the woman my friend married. i’ll call her lulu. she’s a drama queen, bossy, pushy when she can’t be bossy, and a know-it-all most especially when her ignorance is shining. and she’s done some seriously nasty stuff to me that i’ve reported on here, over the years. but never mind that. recently she acted out at me and i decided it wasn’t worth it to me to keep spending time with her. i talked to her partner, my old friend, and explained my reasons and apologized and said that i’d understand if she wanted to stop being friends with me. but, amazingly, she said she wanted to continue our friendship, and she told me that i am not the first of her friends to come to her this way about lulu; that she maintains an entire social life seperately from lulu. but here’s the rub: everybody in lulu’s family is dying. about 2 yrs. ago one of her 3 sisters learned she had an inoperable brain tumor. she’s barely alive now, surrounded by hospice, and everybody keeps waiting for her to be out of her misery. about a year before that another one of lulu’s 3 sisters died of a heart attack. right after the brain tumor sister was dxed, the 3rd sister was told she had liver cancer, but they performed surgery, taking away some of her liver with the tumore, and telling her that it looked like she’d make it past the 5 yr mark. only, instead she developed sepsis after a blood transfusion and died suddenly. then, last night lulu got a middle-of-the-night call from a family member and heard it’s not soozy (brain tumor sister). instead it was her oldest brother. (big family — 4 sister, counting lulu, and 3 brothers.) my friend called to tell me the latest news, this afternoon. i wept when i heard it. i don’t even like lulu, but it didn’t matter. it just seemed like way too much for anyone to bear all at once. i’m thinking of sending a card and some flowers or something. i’ll never be able to be her friend, but still, i genuinely feel this ovewhelming grief for her. suggestions? trill

Response:

right. Yeah, I thought about that. And then I found myself in her presence coincidentally, so I went on automatic and simply told her that I felt very sorry. She just looked through me and walke away. but, that was something I could handle, because, frankly, that is just the way she has always been about everything, which is why I am unable to be around her, why I told her partner, the woman I was first friends with and remain friends with, that we would either have to carry on our friendship without including lulu. Meanwhile, my friend, as all of this tragedy strikes lulu’s family, complains to me about the family being too dramatic. Everything is complicated, isn’t it? trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This isn’t to the topic that you wrote about right here, trill, but I meant to warn you: please remember if you *do* decide to make some gesture toward this woman that you are potentially setting yourself in a position to be hurt if she rejects the gesture, ignores it, whatever – unless you tell yourself for real at the outset that it is about what *you* want to do, and not about how she will respond (or not). Think about whether you are prepared to handle any of the full range of possibilities that any gesture of yours might incur – then go forward, based on your conclusions. You don’t want to be asking for more trouble. Beauty. thanks every body for responding to this. after i wrote th e rest of this post i realized that i should be spoilering everything below this because it is all and only about sadness and despair and not knowing how to make "it" or if i should try. O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O i feel extremely isolated. anyway, will send something to say my feelings of sorrow to the woman, but then makes me think that only thing that anyone only reason that anyone ever botheres to say anything to me is like that. because i am pretty much totally isolated now, except for the cyber social life of asd, and very afrai d that it won’t be enough to sustain me. i’m barely able to get up now. just before i landed here at asd i got email from someone for whom i care deeply but with whom the friendship has always been up and down, like way up and way down and never knowing when i’m going to trip and fall or the safty belt will break and i’ll fly out of the roller coaster. never know. never did know. but till, realizing how isolated i wsa getting tried to reach out to hr and first got welcomed but then rejected so sie would do the same for me, tell me hir sorrow about how i am with this physical sickiness and some of the other problems, but no couldn’t be my friend, and well, see, i dunno, but i think that hurts worse than just not having contact. so it is confusing. but i’m confused about everything now . got dx. have to start on this heavy drug regimen. very scary any way i look at it. and look around and no friends, nobody to go to a movie with, nobody to talk on the phone with, nobody to sit in the lving room or walk the dog with, nobody to share a meal with… just me and potato. and i feel i am failing potato. and i’m scared of myself now. too scared to get up in morning and too scared to eat properly and too scared to do the minimum of chores to make house healthy and too scared to do anything. too scared. sorry, this is a bad one. i better go up and spioler trill Dear trill – I believe that sending some form of expression of consolation for her grief is both an acceptable and kind gesture – I do not think it is inappropriate. I can certainly understand being sorry for someone else’s grief and pain, even if one cannot be friends with that person. Beauty. this is actually about someone i know, not code for being about me, okay? and i’m going to spoiler it, because it is heavy with sadness. i can’t even believe it is happening. and then when i think of how terribly it affects me, just knowing about it, and then think about how much more tragic many people’s lives are in the rest of the world, i am overwhelmed with the sadness of life. and i am ashamed of myself for not being able to hold up under the stress and duress of my life, which is not even worth mentioning when i think about what so many others experience in war and induced famine and natrural disaster. well, time for the spoiler what’s below is not splatted x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x I know this woman because she is the life partner of another woman with whom i was friends before they met each other. now the’ve been together for about 6 or 7 yrs. about 4 yrs ago they had a wedding ceremony and bought a house together. never liked the woman my friend married. i’ll call her lulu. she’s a drama queen, bossy, pushy when she can’t be bossy, and a know-it-all most especially when her ignorance is shining. and she’s done some seriously nasty stuff to me that i’ve reported on here, over the years. but never mind that. recently she acted out at me and i decided it wasn’t worth it to me to keep spending time with her. i talked to her partner, my old friend, and explained my reasons and apologized and said that i’d understand if she wanted to stop being friends with me. but, amazingly, she said she wanted to continue our friendship, and she told me that i am not the first of her friends to come to her this way about lulu; that she maintains an entire social life seperately from lulu. but here’s the rub: everybody in lulu’s family is dying. about 2 yrs. ago one of her 3 sisters learned she had an inoperable brain tumor. she’s barely alive now, surrounded by hospice, and everybody keeps waiting for her to be out of her misery. about a year before that another one of lulu’s 3 sisters died of a heart attack. right after the brain tumor sister was dxed, the 3rd sister was told she had liver cancer, but they performed surgery, taking away some of her liver with the tumore, and telling her that it looked like she’d make it past the 5 yr mark. only, instead she developed sepsis after a blood transfusion and died suddenly. then, last night lulu got a middle-of-the-night call from a family member and heard it’s not soozy (brain tumor sister). instead it was her oldest brother. (big family — 4 sister, counting lulu, and 3 brothers.) my friend called to tell me the latest news, this afternoon. i wept when i heard it. i don’t even like lulu, but it didn’t matter. it jus t seemed like way too much for anyone to bear all at once. i’m thinking of sending a card and some flowers or something. i’ll never be able to be her friend, but still, i genuinely feel this ovewhelming grief for her. suggestions? trill

Response:

Yes, it’s complicated - probably more than it ought to be. You made your gesture. That’s all you can be responsible for. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – right. Yeah, I thought about that. And then I found myself in her presence coincidentally, so I went on automatic and simply told her that I felt very sorry. She just looked through me and walke away. but, that was something I could handle, because, frankly, that is just the way she has always been about everything, which is why I am unable to be around her, why I told her partner, the woman I was first friends with and remain friends with, that we would either have to carry on our friendship without including lulu. Meanwhile, my friend, as all of this tragedy strikes lulu’s family, complains to me about the family being too dramatic. Everything is complicated, isn’t it? trill This isn’t to the topic that you wrote about right here, trill, but I meant to warn you: please remember if you *do* decide to make some gesture toward this woman that you are potentially setting yourself in a position to be hurt if she rejects the gesture, ignores it, whatever – unless you tell yourself for real at the outset that it is about what *you* want to do, and not about how she will respond (or not). Think about whether you are prepared to handle any of the full range of possibilities that any gesture of yours might incur – then go forward, based on your conclusions. You don’t want to be asking for more trouble. Beauty. thanks every body for responding to this. after i wrote th e rest of this post i realized that i should be spoilering everything below this because it is all and only about sadness and despair and not knowing how to make "it" or if i should try. O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O i feel extremely isolated. anyway, will send something to say my feelings of sorrow to the woman, but then makes me think that only thing that anyone only reason that anyone ever botheres to say anything to me is like that. because i am pretty much totally isolated now, except for the cyber social life of asd, and very afrai d that it won’t be enough to sustain me. i’m barely able to get up now. just before i landed here at asd i got email from someone for whom i care deeply but with whom the friendship has always been up and down, like way up and way down and never knowing when i’m going to trip and fall or the safty belt will break and i’ll fly out of the roller coaster. never know. never did know. but till, realizing how isolated i wsa getting tried to reach out to hr and first got welcomed but then rejected so sie would do the same for me, tell me hir sorrow about how i am with this physical sickiness and some of the other problems, but no couldn’t be my friend, and well, see, i dunno, but i think that hurts worse than just not having contact. so it is confusing. but i’m confused about everything now . got dx. have to start on this heavy drug regimen. very scary any way i look at it. and look around and no friends, nobody to go to a movie with, nobody to talk on the phone with, nobody to sit in the lving room or walk the dog with, nobody to share a meal with… just me and potato. and i feel i am failing potato. and i’m scared of myself now. too scared to get up in morning and too scared to eat properly and too scared to do the minimum of chores to make house healthy and too scared to do anything. too scared. sorry, this is a bad one. i better go up and spioler trill Dear trill – I believe that sending some form of expression of consolation for her grief is both an acceptable and kind gesture – I do not think it is inappropriate. I can certainly understand being sorry for someone else’s grief and pain, even if one cannot be friends with that person. Beauty. this is actually about someone i know, not code for being about me, okay? and i’m going to spoiler it, because it is heavy with sadness. i can’t even believe it is happening. and then when i think of how terribly it affects me, just knowing about it, and then think about how much more tragic many peoat ts lives are in the rest of the world, i am overwhelmed with the sadness of life. and i am ashamed of myself for not being able to hold up under the stress and duress of my life, which is not even worth mentioning when i think about what so many others experience in war and induced famine and natrural disaster. well, time for the spoiler what’s below is not splatted x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x I know this woman because she is the life partner of another woman with whom i was friends before they met each other. now the’ve been together for about 6 or 7 yrs. about 4 yrs ago they had a wedding ceremony and bought a house together. never liked the woman my friend married. i’ll call her lulu. she’s a drama queen, bossy, pushy when she can’t be bossy, and a know-it-all most especially when her ignorance is shining. and she’s done some seriously nasty stuff to me that i’ve reported on here, over the years. but never mind that. recently she acted out at me and i decided it wasn’t worth it to me to keep spending time with her. i talked to her partner, my old friend, and explained my reasons and apologized and said that i’d understand if she wanted to stop being friends with me. but, amazingly, she said she wanted to continue our friendship, and she told me that i am not the first of her friends to come to her this way about lulu; that she maintains an entire social life seperately from lulu. but here’s the rub: everybody in lulu’s family is dying. about 2 yrs. ago one of her 3 sisters learned she had an inoperable brain tumor. she’s barely alive now, surrounded by hospice, and everybody keeps waiting for her to be out of her misery. about a year before that another one of lulu’s 3 sisters died of a heart attack. right after the brain tumor sister was dxed, the 3rd sister was told she had liver cancer, but they performed surgery, taking away some of her liver with the tumore, and telling her that it looked like she’d make it past the 5 yr mark. only, instead she developed sepsis after a blood transfusion and died suddenly. then, last night lulu got a middle-of-the-night call from a family member and heard it’s not soozy (brain tumor sister). instead it was her oldest brother. (big family — 4 sister, counting lulu, and 3 brothers.) my friend called to tell me the latest news, this afternoon. i wept when i heard it. i don’t even like lulu, but it didn’t matter. it jus t seemed like way too much for anyone to bear all at once. i’m thinking of sending a card and some flowers or something. i’ll never be able to be her friend, but still, i genuinely feel this ovewhelming grief for her. suggestions? trill

Response:

Giving up

admin — Sat, 19 Apr 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Here in the UK, my mother is on a drink – called something like ‘Build-Up’ – only available on prescription. It has all the body needs to sustain life. Available in various flavours, both sweet and savoury. When I visit her tomorrow, I will make a note of what it is definately called etc and post the details. Regards,

Response:

I too am in the UK and I have my prescription here in front of me. There are other ones but the stuff I have is listed as Ensure Liquid Feed Can 250 ml They come in chocolate, vanilla, coffee, hazelnut, strawberry and others that I haven’t investigated including savoury . I find the vanilla too sweet but like chocolate, coffee and hazelnut. Its a case of trying for the ones that suit. They are really good for when I don’t want to eat. Without them I think I would be seriously underweight. Jules

Response:

Just back in now, and thats the name. Ensure!

Response:

Hi She’s stage IV colorectal with liver mets I’ll see if she likes blended shakes – might be useful way of getting some fresh vegetables down her. Also it shouldn’t be too hard on the stent. Thanks Anth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can you get her to drink? if she’ll drink, try giving her some ensure or boost drinks…. something my grandma liked was having Chocolate Ensure put into a blender with some ice cream. at least this way, you don’t have to stress out about where her nutrients are coming from. the shaking could be from pain that she’s unable to consciously recognize…. if it is pain, then that’s a HUGE reason as to why she’s not eating. also, what stage is she in? that could have a lot to do with what’s going on with her. We got her out of hospital today – she’s shaking – it might just be the lack of nutrition. But I doubt I can coax her to eat – tried and I think it just makes her more adamant on not eating. I’m going to have a word with my sister not to mention food Anth Anth…. I’m not sure how much I can help…. from what I’ve read so far, your mom has Liver cancer? please correct me if I"m wrong on the diagnosis…. from my experience with patients with liver cancer, the liver becomes swollen and enlarged…. putting some pressure on the stomach. that may or may not account for the loss of appetite, I’m not sure. there are some nutrients that are metabolized in the liver and if the liver’s not working right, a build up of toxins occur. usually you’ll notice a yellowish tinge to her skin, the whites of her eyes and under her tongue. sometimes those toxins make a person too sick to want to eat…. if she’s in a lot of pain, chances are, that is contributing to her confusion. I’m not sure if this helps. something that was said to me regarding my grandma…. she’ll go when she’s ready to…. she may be keeping herself here because there are still things she has to attend to. only when she’s finished what she needs to finish to her satisfaction can she truly feel at peace…. at least, that’s what I was told…. it helped me to know that…. Hang in there…. I’m praying for you and your mom…. Hi Mother is _still_ in hospital after the stenting operation. She’s not eating much – maybe a few spoons of soup and the odd drink. She’s loosing weight also and has a weird tremor. She’s also saying stuff like "Anthony bring some pads and erm erm erm dunno" She’s forgetting things mid sentence. Do you think this is because she’s not got much food in her? My dad died with cancer. He got weak and wouldn’t eat. Eventually an opportunist infection got him maybe pneumonia. This is so frustrating how can I get her to eat? I think she’s gave up – lost the will to fight. She says she’s not sick, but she has no appetite. Her pain threshold on her chart is 1 which is low. I’ve tried everything to brighten her up – it doesn’t seem to work now. Anth

Response:

Hi Mother is _still_ in hospital after the stenting operation. She’s not eating much – maybe a few spoons of soup and the odd drink. She’s loosing weight also and has a weird tremor. She’s also saying stuff like "Anthony bring some pads and erm erm erm dunno" She’s forgetting things mid sentence. Do you think this is because she’s not got much food in her? My dad died with cancer. He got weak and wouldn’t eat. Eventually an opportunist infection got him maybe pneumonia. This is so frustrating how can I get her to eat? I think she’s gave up – lost the will to fight. She says she’s not sick, but she has no appetite. Her pain threshold on her chart is 1 which is low. I’ve tried everything to brighten her up – it doesn’t seem to work now. Anth

Response:

Mother is _still_ in hospital after the stenting operation. She’s not eating much – maybe a few spoons of soup and the odd drink. She’s loosing weight also and has a weird tremor. She’s also saying stuff like "Anthony bring some pads and erm erm erm dunno" She’s forgetting things mid sentence. Do you think this is because she’s not got much food in her? My dad died with cancer. He got weak and wouldn’t eat. Eventually an opportunist infection got him maybe pneumonia. This is so frustrating how can I get her to eat? I think she’s gave up – lost the will to fight. She says she’s not sick, but she has no appetite. Her pain threshold on her chart is 1 which is low. I’ve tried everything to brighten her up – it doesn’t seem to work now.

Hello Anth, Same thing happened with my Dad, Anth. And we agonized over his not eating and when they stopped the IV fluids. We got upset with them and with each other and eventually had to reach acceptance that we were losing our Dad. It’s so hard Anth, and I really feel for you, especially since you lost your Dad so recently. I’m glad your mam has little pain now. If the doctors (or nurses) tell you that by eating, she could come out of the hospital and/or have quality of life while extending her life, but not extending her suffering, then by all means, ask about some of the medications mentioned here http://www.cancersymptoms.org/symptoms/anorexia/manage/medications.php http://crossingthecreek.com/main_index.htm Appetite decreases The patient may stop eating entirely. Indeed, this is to be expected. Progressive loss of appetite is a hallmark of dying process and is a mechanism by which the body keeps itself more comfortable. This is often very hard for caregivers to accept but it is important to listen to what the patient wants and not what you think s/he ought to be wanting. Bodies have been going through this for thousands of years and have worked out effective techniques for keeping themselves comfortable. Pay attention to what the body is saying it wants