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World AIDS Day 1997 – repost

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Question:

Actually the AIDS tests are quite good at indicating anti-HIV-1 antibodies or viral RNA

Which proves John’s point perfectly about the test being worthless. Even if you believe HIV causes AIDS, don’t you think the more pertinent question would be, how much of this actual HIV is present? If a person has ANTIBODIES to a given virus, why would you be so quick to assume there is any relavent HIV present? and viral RNA? who cares about an artifact? But of course, looking for actual HIV is much more difficult and time- consuming because even in people dying of AIDS they usually have only MINUTE amounts of HIV present. I would urge everybody out there who’s only "problem" in their health is testing positive on an anti-body test to not panic and resist taking any toxic chemotherapy for your "condition" Re-read Fred Shaw’s posts on what these drugs do to you. Dave Blade Dave Blade

Response:

Could you please continue the wacky re-thought ideas on another thread or another newsgroup?? Regards to all HIV positive or not, Andy

Andy, I hate to make anyone feel unwelcome but his ideas are certainly unwelcome on this newgroup. Are we a bunch of wackos falling for an "AIDS myth"? Certainly not. I think it would take years of therapy to get John’s mind back together. I can’t understand people like him. I know one guy who is a raving maniac saying much the same things that John says yet he has serious complications from AIDS. He’s waging a war against imagined Nazis. This is how he fights AIDS and he’s suddenly disappeared. I wonder what has happened to him.

Response:

It was the same with my lover though he finally took his own life.

But I think you told us he died of "Aids"! This is why we simply can’t believe these occasional claims about unmedicated people dying from "killer virus". When investigated, it always turns out to be something else. John, you’ve got a lot of nerve. My lover lived for many years with AIDS and complications that few people would be willing to stand. He had ITP. His blood platelets would continually drop to dangerous levels, as low as 3 to 4,000 when 250,000 is normal. He would bruise so badly he would be black on entire portions of his body. For a while AZT reversed this condition but not indefinitely. He would piss blood and sometimes he couldn’t pee at all. I could never have lived with the problems he had but he kept on going and I was glad and lucky to have him. We were together 18 years and believe me he was not a fool and was not ill because he took medication. If he hadn’t he would have dead years before he died. You always think you have the perfect perspective on everything and no matter what people tell you, you still believe they were ill and perhaps died from therapy. Why are you so deluded? Why are you so intent on pestering people who are dealing with a deadly disease and on this newsgroup to share information to help themselves. If you have some kind of mission you need to fulfill why don’t you join HEAL and help those crackpots spread the word in their small way that AIDS doesn’t really exist.

Response:

This is why we simply can’t believe these occasional claims about unmedicated people dying from "killer virus".

You speak as if these claims are ficticious. John, you certainly don’t have a grip on things. Why can’t you accept that people are truly ill. The drugs that are being used were applied to treating AIDS because a problem with immune deficiency already existed. People were dying and they still are dying. The drugs are not wonderful but they did in fact help many people. You speak as if there is some kind of conspiracy to keep the AIDS idea moving. The truth is that there is a health problem that affects people in large groups and they are doing whatever they can to deal with it. It’s really horrible that you do not recognize the real nature of AIDS and make it seem that AIDS is the result of the drugs used to treat it as if there is so kind of plot to murder gays and others en masse. You’re not the only one like this and I find this upsetting. John, you have no appreciation of science or understanding of what is happening to people affected by AIDS.

Response:

I’m afraid not quite. Latest AIDS deaths in Australia for 1996 total 448 compared to 639 for 1995 This spectacular decline correlates perfectly with increased suspicion and reduction of "anti-HIV" drugs, exactly the same as in the UK. Without the prescription of these substances, "Aids" disappears very quickly everywhere. There are no other factors.

I bet you a case of perfectly good Heineken that the decrease in AIDS death in Australia, like in the UK, is correlated with increased use of antivirals. Cahn you explain that one for me, John ? Oh, and by the way, you were still going to answer my questions as to why taking an AIDS test was dangerous. Did you forget ? Or are you too embarrassed (em-bare-assed) to admit that you have no data to support your silly statements. Marnix Bosch

Response:

It was the same with my lover though he finally took his own life.

But I think you told us he died of "Aids"! This is why we simply can’t believe these occasional claims about unmedicated people dying from "killer virus". When investigated, it always turns out to be something else. Too many "Aids" adherents don’t seem to have the least regard for honesty. No wonder they can fool themselves so easily. John — "There is this terrible fear throughout the field that it will be discovered we have been walking down the wrong route all these years and advising people to do things which will turn out to be the wrong things. I think about quitting all the time." UK "Aids" industry worker’s letter to Neville Hodgkinson, author of _AIDS: The Failure of Contemporary Science_

Response:

I bet you a case of perfectly good Heineken that the decrease in AIDS death in Australia, like in the UK, is correlated with increased use of antivirals. Cahn you explain that one for me, John ? Yer on. We have been over this before. Others promised to produce convincing evidence. They failed abysmally. You will too. And how will you know? Even the BBC has reported on people flushing their "medications" away to survive. How will you account for these? You have already lost. Send the crate to Continuum, marked for my PERSONAL attention. (I will drop in there and collect the empty cans…)

If you want to claim your price you will have to provide data. You say I lost ? Okay, where’s the evidence ? Peer reviewed data please, not quotations from supermarket rags or tv documentaries. Oh, and by the way, you were still going to answer my questions as to why taking an AIDS test was dangerous. Did you forget ? Anyone who reads this group knows why engaging with the "Aids" delusion, any part of it, is extremely dangerous. In the first place, taking an "HIV test" signs you up for the superstition, and prepares the ground for a meaningless "positive" diagnosis. Gullible people may then be coerced into taking powerful toxic substances until they die from their effects. This is called an "Aids death", and only the US continues to generate these to any extent.

This is incosistent with the data from Edward King who posted that AIDS deaths in the UK are associated with increased taking of new antivirals. In fact, the "HIV test" is a piece of totally meaningless pseudo-scientific medical flummery with absolutely no value of any kind, except to the vultures who profit from the killing. It should be avoided at all costs, as it now is by sensible people everywhere on earth.

Actually the AIDS tests are quite good in indicating anti-HIV-1 antibodies or viral RNA. I encourage everybody who is in doubtr about their infection status to get tested. The risk lies only in not knowing. That clear enough for you? (As if you didn’t know already.) John

I am always amazed how somebody who on paper sounds as articulate as you can continue to spout such nonsense in the face of clear data contradicting your superstitions. Marnix Bosch

Response:

You seem like a nice enough guy but don’t you feel a little absurd continually posting on a newsgroup about AIDS saying there is no such disease.

I am a *very* nice guy. That’s why I do it. Plenty of people have become ill and died without any medications.

On examination, this claim fails to stand up. There are only the early clusters of cases now known to be mainly the result of popper abuse, and a handful of other illnesses, most probably curable with proper treatment. As soon as "treating HIV" is abandoned, "Aids" evaporates very quickly, and in countries like the UK and Australia, etc., there never *was* "Aids" until this deadly practice was started. Have you ever been tested?

No. I have never been bungee-jumping either, which is about as meaningful, as a medical test. (Probably a LOT less dangerous.) — "HIV infection _per se_ seems to entail little danger unless it is addressed with antiviral therapy." Prof. Tim Hand, Reappraising AIDS, Sept.1996

Response:

Yes it is true, and I have spent the last eight years learning about HIV and AIDS, and it is NOT a superstition.

Witchfinders spent years learning about witches. That doesn’t mean they existed. Even when they found and burnt them. According to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, the word ’superstition’ is defined as "Unreasonable awe or fear of something unknown, mysterious, or imaginary, esp. in connection with religion, religious belief or practice founded upon fear or ignorance", superstition is also defined as "an unreasonable or groundless notion".

An excellent description of "Aids" and "HIV". HIV and AIDS are not unknown, mysterious or imaginary, your theories however, are unreasonable and groundless so in fact it your idea that is superstitious, not HIV or AIDS.

"HIV" cannot even be isolated. "Aids" has turned out to be an empty scare story everywhere EXCEPT for those who took deadly "anti-HIV" nostrums against it. The two frauds combined amount to a superstition, by the description above. Really, well in that case I will give you the pleasure of the "I told you so" when (but moe likely if) it happens.

I’ll remind you. All this fancy stuff wont hide the fact that they are selling garbage and utter crap.

Dissident "Aids" websites do not sell anything, as far as I know. Except knowledge, for the price of reading it online: nothing. You need to spend a bit of time there. There are also some good books now, explaining the spectacular and deadly fraud that was "Aids". John — Dr. Joseph Sonnabend, New York physician, founder of the American Foundation for AIDS Research (AmFAR): "This is not evidence-based medicine. This is just a disgusting manipulation of people’s fears and desperation, all for the sake of selling drugs"

Response:

John, does re-thinking AIDS really mean denial? IfS doesn’t kill all these people then what does? Old age, I think not. Then how do you explain the extrodinarily high numbers of deaths in the population? Is it normal to get PCP, KS etc etc when one is fit and healthy?

All WHAT people? In the UK, where we are, "Aids" has disappeared as fast as people stopped believing in it and those already victimised started to refuse "medication". Examining the recent closure of several unused "Aids" wards in London (for lack of cases), ITN London Today found that huge sums of money had been wasted. Experts at the Institute of Economic Affairs complained: "In 1995, 541 people died from Aids-related illnesses. Public spending on Aids campaigning, treatment and research was 270 million pounds. In the same year, 140,790 people died of cancer, but the public spend on that was just 245 million." ITV London Today, "The Epidemic That Never Was". (18 Feb 97) So the simple answer to your question is that there are NO extra new health events that could be explained by the "Aids" delusion. We have been consistently and continuously misinformed about this. The superstition and its corrupt promoters have milked health budgets, causing real problems for genuine healthcare, in addition to the 8,000 or so unnecessary deaths from "Aids" drugs. The "scientists" may never yet have proved that HIV causes AIDS or indeed if HIV actually exists but with my own experience of AIDS, watching friends and loved ones die or become ill, then to me, it does exist at least until someone proves otherwise.

With what you now know, you will be able to verify what actually killed them. You may feel that you owe their memory the justice of having that crime exposed. So, is World AIDS Day really a lost cause? Even if we don’t know for sure if HIV/ AIDS exists, isn’t it worth trying to take our heads out of the sand and be real, face up to the problems we have, whatever they may be called?

As it promotes a deadly superstition, World AIDS Day should be a day of shame and mourning for the medical and scientific community, and a reminder of their failings. So far, there is little evidence that they fully recognise the extent of their dereliction, or the dreadful price that others have paid. Could you please continue the wacky re-thought ideas on another thread or another newsgroup??

Unfortunately for you, The "Aids" business cannot censor the content of Usenet newsgroups (apart from the corruptly moderated industry group sci.med.aids). But I am not surprised that you would expect and hope to do this. John — ‘Economists argue that because Aids has not been on the scale predicted, funds allocated since the 80s have been wasted. Economist Robert Whelan, of The Institute of Economic Affairs said, "There has never been a great Epidemic or Pandemic. Aids is very difficult to transmit; it affects very small numbers of people."’ ITV London Today, "The Epidemic That Never Was".

Response:

I’m afraid not quite. Latest AIDS deaths in Australia for 1996 total 448 compared to 639 for 1995

This spectacular decline correlates perfectly with increased suspicion and reduction of "anti-HIV" drugs, exactly the same as in the UK. Without the prescription of these substances, "Aids" disappears very quickly everywhere. There are no other factors. (I am excluding that very small number of immune system failures that result from overexposure to recreational drugs, mainly inhaled nitrites, and which were the cause of the original clusters of cases in the USA and were misdiagnosed as having a theoretical "killer virus" origin. More than a decade later, the "virus" has still not been isolated or proven to exist. Many scientists now doubt that it ever did.) The AIDS deaths may be declining, but we still have a problem. As you know so well the drugs used are not a cure. We still must find a final solution to the HIV problem.

"Aids" has been a Final Solution in more ways than you seem to realise or understand. However, the point of searching for a "cure" for an iatrogenic condition that is disappearing as fast as people recognise it, will not be readily understood by perceptive readers. As it has been these "cures" that have accounted for the whole of the problem in the UK and Australia, the less of them the better. The notion of imagining that HIV does not exist is quaint, but not very useful for those of us who have moved beyond denial.

Heaven knows what you mean by that. If you have been "diagnosed HIV positive", and believed it, and are poisoning yourself to death with deadly toxins, that denial is yours alone. You may have the dubious distinction of being one of the last handful of so-called "Aids deaths" in Australia. But is it worth it? John — "`HIV’ is not a virus, but a collection of gene products that can appear when immune cells are chronically stimulated in the body or drastically manipulated in the laboratory. No two identical `HIV’s have been isolated, even from the same individual." "AIDS: The Failure of Contemporary Science" by Neville Hodgkinson

Response:

Dr. Joseph Sonnabend, New York physician, founder of the American Foundation for AIDS Research (AmFAR): "This is not evidence-based medicine. This is just a disgusting manipulation of people’s fears and desperation, all for the sake of selling drugs" I don’t know how it is possible to misquote someone in this fashion but Joseph Sonnabend was no different than any other AIDS doctor. I know someone who used him and he took AZT. No matter what Sonnabend did he could not save this guy. Do you have Dr. Sonnabend’s e-mail address? Let’s get this straight. Knowing the way he practiced medicine I find it hard to believe that your statements aren’t outright lies or misquotes.

In a search for quotes from Sonnabend, I found the following from a July, 1996 GMHC interview regarding antiretroviral therapy: Sonnabend: I can recommend ddI even alone for people with under 400 CD4 cells whose status is declining (on the basis of 175). He was also quoted in this month’s GMHC Treatment Issues as saying: Sonnabend: A war is being waged in the blood where billions of T-cells are destroyed every day, says Joseph Sonnabend, M.D., and that "now we have drugs that can stop it all." Sonnabend is also an Honorary Board of Advisor for Treatment Action Group (TAG) Obviously the quote at the top of this message was taken out of context and/or manipulated as it is clear Sonnabend uses and recommends antiretroviral therapy. Note to LowerESide: I encourage you to try to reach Dr. Sonnabend to advise him that he is being widely misquoted on this and other newsgroups. I’m sure he will want to respond.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Aids" is a dead superstition outside of the USA. "Aids deaths" have been declining sharply in western countries ever since it was understood that unless allegedly "HIV positive" people accept deadly "medication", they don’t become ill. There never was any "Aids" in Third World countries. The entire corrupt "Aids" business is imploding across Europe and elsewhere. That is why there is no interest in "World AIDS Day". If they have any sense, the criminals who promoted the superstition will be too busy preparing for impending litigation to worry about such nonsense. John Listen Sunshine, AIDS is not a superstition, I have watched my partner’s health decline over the last eight years, I see him 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I do not know what your problem is, but trust me you have one.

—cut– John, does re-thinking AIDS really mean denial? IfS doesn’t kill all these people then what does? Old age, I think not. Then how do you explain the extrodinarily high numbers of deaths in the population? Is it normal to get PCP, KS etc etc when one is fit and healthy? The "scientists" may never yet have proved that HIV causes AIDS or indeed if HIV actually exists but with my own experience of AIDS, watching friends and loved ones die or become ill, then to me, it does exist at least until someone proves otherwise. So, is World AIDS Day really a lost cause? Even if we don’t know for sure if HIV/ AIDS exists, isn’t it worth trying to take our heads out of the sand and be real, face up to the problems we have, whatever they may be called? Anyway, I’m still looking for support, not negativity, for World "Accidently dying" Day. Could you please continue the wacky re-thought ideas on another thread or another newsgroup?? Regards to all HIV positive or not, Andy — Self Help Group for HIV/ AIDS East Yorkshire and Hull

Response:

Listen Sunshine, AIDS is not a superstition, I have watched my partner’s health decline over the last eight years, I see him 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I do not know what your problem is, but trust me you have one. If a single word of this is true, you need to spend some time learning about the superstition, before it kills your partner.

Yes it is true, and I have spent the last eight years learning about HIV and AIDS, and it is NOT a superstition. For the record let’s put something straight here. According to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, the word ’superstition’ is defined as "Unreasonable awe or fear of something unknown, mysterious, or imaginary, esp. in connection with religion, religious belief or practice founded upon fear or ignorance", superstition is also defined as "an unreasonable or groundless notion". HIV and AIDS are not unknown, mysterious or imaginary, your theories however, are unreasonable and groundless so in fact it your idea that is superstitious, not HIV or AIDS. It will be too late to change your mind after the whole scam is demolished by dissidents. Which will be sooner rather than later.

Really, well in that case I will give you the pleasure of the "I told you so" when (but moe likely if) it happens. New realist "Aids" websites appear all the time, and sites are improved and updated. I have posted lists before.

So do get rich quick scams but we all know to take them with a pinch of salt. The influential Rethinking AIDS site has moved, and now has some spectacular multimedia additions. Other improvements are in the pipeline/under construction:

All this fancy stuff wont hide the fact that they are selling garbage and utter crap. And good luck.

I don’t need luck as much as you need a psychanalyist — Regards Tom

Response:

I don’t know how it is possible to misquote someone in this fashion but Joseph Sonnabend was no different than any other AIDS doctor. I know someone who used him and he took AZT. No matter what Sonnabend did he could not save this guy. Do you have Dr. Sonnabend’s e-mail address? Let’s get this straight. Knowing the way he practiced medicine I find it hard to believe that your statements aren’t outright lies or misquotes.

Response:

It was the same with my lover though he finally took his own life. Sometimes when I read right wing material I wonder how wonderful freedom of speech really is. Take the KKK for example. Should they be allowed to pester people with right wing and useless doctrine that serves no purpose but to try to gain converts to hurt others? What is wrong with John?f He’s on a bandwagon while millions have died and hundreds of thousands will be added to their numbers in a short while. These newsgroups are means for people to delude themselves. They keep repeating the same nonsense and they reinforce their own misconceptions. Doesn’t John see that what he accuses the medical community of doing he himself reinforces with his nonsensical statements?

Response:

John, You seem like a nice enough guy but don’t you feel a little absurd continually posting on a newsgroup about AIDS saying there is no such disease. Plenty of people have become ill and died without any medications. You make it sound as if AIDS has disappeared throughout the world but people are still dying in the US because they believe it. This is utter nonsense. If people listened to you they would stop all AIDS funding and let AIDS victims manage on their own, which is to die in the streets. Have you ever been tested? If so just be thankful that you don’t have any problems. Why be on a band wagon telling people there is nothing wrong with them when so many are suffering? There is obviously nothing wrong with you but this is not true of everyone.

Response:

AIDS is a "dead superstition" outside the USA. Dead and buried. Good riddance!

I’m afraid not quite. Latest AIDS deaths in Australia for 1996 total 448 compared to 639 for 1995 (For calendar year: source, HIV Surveillance Report, April 1997) Although this is a significant decline it is not zero. People with HIV who take "deadly" medications get ill (presumably they die of the superstitious AIDS which is a dead supersitition outside the USA). But they don’t. As the truth about "anti-HIV" medication became better known (it causes "Aids") the dose was drastically reduced and sensible victims refused it altogether. These people, as you might expect, do not die of anything, or have unusual health. As a direct result of this process, "Aids deaths" have dwindled away both here in the UK, and where you are (Australia). (As opposed to where you *think* you are: The Rings of Saturn.)

The AIDS deaths may be declining, but we still have a problem. As you know so well the drugs used are not a cure. We still must find a final solution to the HIV problem. The notion of imagining that HIV does not exist is quaint, but not very useful for those of us who have moved beyond denial. AC Kirk

Response:

Let’s get this crystal clear:

You may be setting yourself an impossible task, Kirk. AIDS is a "dead superstition" outside the USA.

Dead and buried. Good riddance! People with HIV who take "deadly" medications get ill (presumably they die of the superstitious AIDS which is a dead supersitition outside the USA).

But they don’t. As the truth about "anti-HIV" medication became better known (it causes "Aids") the dose was drastically reduced and sensible victims refused it altogether. These people, as you might expect, do not die of anything, or have unusual health. As a direct result of this process, "Aids deaths" have dwindled away both here in the UK, and where you are (Australia). (As opposed to where you *think* you are: The Rings of Saturn.) No AIDS in "Third World countries". Never was and never will be, I guess that’s because they just refuse to believe it when they see it.

They have enough real problems without queuing up for "HIV tests" in order to sign up for imaginary one. That does not mean that unscrupulous "Aids" promoters have not caused deaths and illness. But it wasn’t "Aids". Just the cost of exploitation and medical stupidity. They can’t afford enough "anti-HIV" drugs to generate real "Aids". Only the USA manages to do that. AIDS "business" is imploding across Europe.

Helped on its way by increasingly revealing legal decisions. John, you really need to seek professional help. What is your problem with facts?

None. I *love* the facts that any study of "Aids" reveals. I look forward eagerly to seeing the guilty in court. John — Dr. Joseph Sonnabend, New York physician, founder of the American Foundation for AIDS Research (AmFAR): "This is not evidence-based medicine. This is just a disgusting manipulation of people’s fears and desperation, all for the sake of selling drugs"

Response:

If a single word of this is true, you need to spend some time learning about the superstition, before it kills your partner. It will be too late to change your mind after the whole scam is demolished by dissidents. Which will be sooner rather than later. New realist "Aids" websites appear all the time, and sites are improved and updated. I have posted lists before. The influential Rethinking AIDS site has moved, and now has some spectacular multimedia additions. Other improvements are in the pipeline/under construction: Rethinking AIDS: http://www.virusmyth.com If you have problems with the new features, also try it on the following URLs: http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/ http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index.htm http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/indexto.htm ("text only") And good luck. John — Professor Duesberg: http://www.duesberg.com Sumeria: http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/aids.html HEAL http://thorup.com/HEAL/healindex.html NY Native: http://www.refuse-resist.com/iajr/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s get this crystal clear: AIDS is a "dead superstition" outside the USA. People with HIV who take "deadly" medications get ill (presumably they die of the superstitious AIDS which is a dead supersitition outside the USA). No AIDS in "Third World countries". Never was and never will be, I guess that’s because they just refuse to believe it when they see it. AIDS "business" is imploding across Europe. John, you really need to seek professional help. What is your problem with facts?

I really wouldn’t waste your breath, what with his head stuck so far in the ISAID YOU WOULDN’T HEAR ANYTHING WOULD YOU JOHN……see what I mean. — Regards Tom

Response:

"Aids" is a dead superstition outside of the USA. "Aids deaths" have been declining sharply in western countries ever since it was understood that unless allegedly "HIV positive" people accept deadly "medication", they don’t become ill. There never was any "Aids" in Third World countries. The entire corrupt "Aids" business is imploding across Europe and elsewhere. That is why there is no interest in "World AIDS Day". If they have any sense, the criminals who promoted the superstition will be too busy preparing for impending litigation to worry about such nonsense. John

Listen Sunshine, AIDS is not a superstition, I have watched my partner’s health decline over the last eight years, I see him 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I do not know what your problem is, but trust me you have one. Why waste yours and every else’s time posting absolute crap to this and other newsgroups. Why not talk some trees, you never know they might just be bored enough to talk back to you. Get a life John! — Regards Tom

Response:

Let’s get this crystal clear: AIDS is a "dead superstition" outside the USA. People with HIV who take "deadly" medications get ill (presumably they die of the superstitious AIDS which is a dead supersitition outside the USA). No AIDS in "Third World countries". Never was and never will be, I guess that’s because they just refuse to believe it when they see it. AIDS "business" is imploding across Europe. John, you really need to seek professional help. What is your problem with facts? AC Kirk

Response:

Hi again Folks, Just wondering if World AIDS Day is really such an uninteresting issue. I had very few replies to this article but thankfully the ones who did reply appeared interested. Any comments again and participation would be most welcolmed. Hello Folks, We are a small self help group in East Yorkshire for people living with and affected by HIV/ AIDS and are planning events etc in our area for World AIDS Day this year. "Children living in a world with AIDS" is the theme this year. We would be very interested in linking up with other groups both in the UK and abroad. We would like to know what events and activities you are planning and how we can link them. Looking forward to hearing from you, Andy

– Andrew McCallie — Self Help Group for HIV/ AIDS East Yorkshire and Hull

Response:

Hi again Folks, Just wondering if World AIDS Day is really such an uninteresting issue. I had very few replies to this article but thankfully the ones who did reply appeared interested.

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