Talk Cancer

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [posted with cc to Nella] Nella: Many people die of cancer, and other illness, but have you noticed, that whenever a cure is found for a major illness a new one pops up?? Kerry: No, Nella, viruses, bacteria, and parasites mutate in a random fashion, sometimes influenced by environmental mutagens. Finding a cure for one illness does /not/ cause a new one to develop. Nella: *** Prove it. Prove that it is not divinly planned. Please provide proof that there is not a circle, or balance. Please provide proof. I do not think you are correct, and I think it’s a big coincedence, too big, that whenever we find a cure for something, something else popps up to take it’s place. Kerry: Prove that it /is/ divinely planned.  Cures and new diseases don’t coincide enough to even /look/ like something you could label a "coincidence," let alone "divine plan."  Care to throw an "ineffable" in there for good measure? Nella: *** Humph, well, you’re the one trying to tell me that what I say is wrong, right? Thus, you should provide the proof. I think differently. You are speaking in very general ways. Why don’t new diseases coincide enough to " look " like a " divine plan "??? Bacteria and viruses have ALWAYS mutated, often quite rapidly, regardless of what time period you’re talking about.  They mutate randomly, and breed in a genetically weighted fashion due to various selective pressures, just as plants and animals have and do.  In our modern society, with so many new "cures" and "treatments" for diseases being developed, we ourselves are creating those selective pressures–our weak (or just not quite strong enough) medicines kill most bacteria of a given strain, but those that survive are more genetically resistant to that medicine.  Those remaining bacteria breed new generations, and we go around the block again. Eventually, we have new strains of bacteria, which may cause the same diseases or new ones, depending on what other mutations have occurred, which cannot be killed by a previously reliable treatment.  It has nothing to do with a Divine Plan, Nella–it is natural selection, plain and simple.

Nella:   I think there’s more to it than that. I can’t believe in amuck evolution, sorry. There’s a reason behind everything. And I think the gods and goddesses are part of it, and the Horned One and the central Goddess plays a definite roll. Can someone please tell me when this newsgroup ( or both for that matter, ) turns into alt.science??? Kerry: Do you realize, Nella, that you use here the exact same argument used by those who claim that AIDS is God’s "Divine Plan," His punishment of homosexuals?  Do you stand by this extension of your statements?

Kerry:     Let’s not drag the homosexuals into this! I really don’t care if it’s " the same argument used by those who claim AIDS is God’s Divine plan. " Look, there were many beliefs before the bible, and if you read mythology, especially Greek mythology you will learn that many things were planned by gods and goddesses. So yes, my beliefs and views are very pagan. Am I worried that bible follower’s believe in a more twisted view of my beliefs? No. If you look through the bible, you will see many things that were copied from pagan beliefs and then twisted. Angels are the best example – copied from the many perceptions of spirit guides ( Watchers, guides, messengers, or whatever you wish to call them. ) Then, they made up some ridiculous notion that Angels become " bad " and fall from God/Christ! If you have any evidence to show to me that the bible was not made up, in any way, due to pagan beliefs period, do tell us, now! I’ve backed up my statement with some factual information.  Let’s see

if you can back up yours. *** You backed it up with science. Are you saying that science is paganism??? Well, are you an athiest? If so, maybe I can see your view. If not, then I cannot. Kerry: You’re just batty. Nella: *** Oh, really? Let’s see who comes out with more karma in the end, and then we’ll see. Even referring to the word " batty " just tells me that you disregard bats and hate them.

Nella:     Tee hee, this was a personal e-mail to Kerry, originally ( and this made her really pissed. ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kerry: Oh, gods.  (1) Karma is an idiotic notion stolen from the Hindus, and bastardized into a fluffy-bunny NewAger bullshit concept. Nella: **** Oh, no it’s not. Hate to tell ya, but it does not just exist in the Hindu religion. If it did, how do Christians believe in glory, a karma equivalent??? Furthermore, how do you think Hindu’s ever even took on the notion of Karma???? Please support this with a little evidence when making such straight accusations!!! This is so riddled with inconsistencies it is hard to know where to begin…  I suppose I’ll have to start by correcting some of your mistaken notions about Karma and Dharma. Even in strictly Hindu terms, Karma is not a moral judgement about whether you’re hurt anyone, or whether you’ve been "good" or "nice."  Karma is about following your duty–your Dharma– your

slot in the Universe.  A person whose Dharma it is to be a warrior, a killer,serves his Dharma and fulfils his Karma by killing people.  A slave who tries to serve the Dharma of a warrior brings the negative effects of Karma down on himself. *** And so karma is not something that can also be of spiritual rank/accomplishment? That’s like saying a Petty Officer’s job is to guide the smaller workers in the Navy but has nothing to do with his excelling. And, what you say above, pulls us right back to the question:            Are humans made to eat meat??       So, in your perspective, if we try to do the job of a preditor that we have killed, put behind bars, etc. we are not on good terms with Karma. That’s what I was saying in the beginning. Think about it. In more mechanical terms, it acts in a way similar to Newton’s Second Law of Thermodynamics:  Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It is entirely without moral judgement.

*** Here we go with science, again. Excuse me, but that little theory can work both ways, and please define your outlook on " moral ". Thank you. When you try to use "Karma" as a /moral/ standard, the whole thing falls apart.

*** It depends on what you mean by " moral " To me a moral isn’t a standard. Not really, it’s more like a set of standards that society agrees upon due to the majority. There’s hardly ever one lonely moral, and I never brought morals up. Not hurting other things when you don’t need to, and when you are not internally built for meat consumption has nothing to do with morality, it has to do with commen sense and self judgement, and self sacrifice, and most of all – non-selfishness. You attempt so hard to turn my words into Christian drowned concepts, but all your attempts are in vain because even as a child, I rejected the bible and seldom read any of it. The word " Karma " is only a word for the subject, but anyone who can feel it when they go out of body knows what it is. In reality, it is your own internal energy but it is of a different nature – it’s a feeling that entities can use to tell:             1) How spiritually old you are             2) Approx. how many life times one has gone through             3) Yes, if one completed or ignored their " role in the circle " ( that’s how I view it. )             4) Just how the person mentally sways ( chaotic, loving, cruel, energetic, etc. ) I guess if one really wanted to the could say horoscopes make up for the lack of atunaty on this plane of existence to this " karmatic energy " as I call it.            It has nothing to really do with being naughty or nice, unless you are having judgement placed on you ( I judge, you judge, we all judge as far as I know. ) There’s a place for everyone, and life is the only " hell " and I would call it more of a school. The underworld is awesome!        This is from my personal experience of the netherworld/other planes. I am very interested in other people’s experiences of the netherworld, and I feel we should share them with eachother here and now. If you can’t speak freely in alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca where else can you speak freely at?? Ya, know??   The pious Jewish Rabbi is apprehended by the Nazi doctor, and experimented upon until he is dead.  The doctor collects the loot from his Jewish prisoners, flies off to Argentina, and lives out his life in style. Where is the consequence of karma in that?  If we are presuming that Karma rewards the good and punishes the bad, we can only assume that the pious Rabbi deserved to be tortured to death, and that the Nazi doctor deserved to live a life of luxury.  Would you suggest that they are simply living out their Dharma?

*** You still don’t get it, I’m sure. It must just be because of your karmatic level ( huh, uh, huh. ) You should learn a little about Karma before presuming to speak on the subject.

*** I’ve experienced the feel of it, or that it brings – the " vibes " if you will. I don’t think I could get any closer to it, well except self sacrificing things for my personal karma. I know I’m confusing you again. Oh dear, well, it’s just one of those things that you must feel yourself! Let’s just say, that you can’t learn it from a book. Now, to answer your specific points: The earliest form of Karma was probably only an observation of cause and effect.  

*** Are you saying that you are attempting to trace the beginning of karma back in spiritual terms?? Gee, please tell me how long I have been spiritually existed! You aren’t going to get that from no book! You’ve … read more »

Response:

[posted with cc to Nella]

Nella: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many people die of cancer, and other illness, but have you noticed, that whenever a cure is found for a major illness a new one pops up?? Kerry: No, Nella, viruses, bacteria, and parasites mutate in a random fashion, sometimes influenced by environmental mutagens.  Finding a cure for one illness does /not/ cause a new one to develop. Nella: *** Prove it. Prove that it is not divinly planned. Please provide proof that there is not a circle, or balance. Please provide proof. I do not think you are correct, and I think it’s a big coincedence, too big, that whenever we find a cure for something, something else popps up to take it’s place. Kerry: Prove that it /is/ divinely planned.  Cures and new diseases don’t coincide enough to even /look/ like something you could label a "coincidence," let alone "divine plan."  Care to throw an "ineffable" in there for good measure? Nella: *** Humph, well, you’re the one trying to tell me that what I say is wrong, right? Thus, you should provide the proof. I think differently. You are speaking in very general ways. Why don’t new diseases coincide enough to " look " like a " divine plan "???

Bacteria and viruses have ALWAYS mutated, often quite rapidly, regardless of what time period you’re talking about.  They mutate randomly, and breed in a genetically weighted fashion due to various selective pressures, just as plants and animals have and do.  In our modern society, with so many new "cures" and "treatments" for diseases being developed, we ourselves are creating those selective pressures–our weak (or just not quite strong enough) medicines kill most bacteria of a given strain, but those that survive are more genetically resistant to that medicine.  Those remaining bacteria breed new generations, and we go around the block again. Eventually, we have new strains of bacteria, which may cause the same diseases or new ones, depending on what other mutations have occurred, which cannot be killed by a previously reliable treatment.  It has nothing to do with a Divine Plan, Nella–it is natural selection, plain and simple. Do you realize, Nella, that you use here the exact same argument used by those who claim that AIDS is God’s "Divine Plan," His punishment of homosexuals?  Do you stand by this extension of your statements? I’ve backed up my statement with some factual information.  Let’s see if you can back up yours. Kerry: You’re just batty. Nella: *** Oh, really? Let’s see who comes out with more karma in the end, and then we’ll see. Even referring to the word " batty " just tells me that you disregard bats and hate them. Kerry: Oh, gods.  (1) Karma is an idiotic notion stolen from the Hindus, and bastardized into a fluffy-bunny NewAger bullshit concept. Nella: **** Oh, no it’s not. Hate to tell ya, but it does not just exist in the Hindu religion. If it did, how do Christians believe in glory, a karma equivalent??? Furthermore, how do you think Hindu’s ever even took on the notion of Karma???? Please support this with a little evidence when making such straight accusations!!!

This is so riddled with inconsistencies it is hard to know where to begin…  I suppose I’ll have to start by correcting some of your mistaken notions about Karma and Dharma. Even in strictly Hindu terms, Karma is not a moral judgement about whether you’re hurt anyone, or whether you’ve been "good" or "nice."  Karma is about following your duty–your Dharma– your slot in the Universe.  A person whose Dharma it is to be a warrior, a killer, serves his Dharma and fulfils his Karma by killing people.  A slave who tries to serve the Dharma of a warrior brings the negative effects of Karma down on himself. In more mechanical terms, it acts in a way similar to Newton’s Second Law of Thermodynamics:  Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.  It is entirely without moral judgement. When you try to use "Karma" as a /moral/ standard, the whole thing falls apart.  The pious Jewish Rabbi is apprehended by the Nazi doctor, and experimented upon until he is dead.  The doctor collects the loot from his Jewish prisoners, flies off to Argentina, and lives out his life in style. Where is the consequence of karma in that?  If we are presuming that Karma rewards the good and punishes the bad, we can only assume that the pious Rabbi deserved to be tortured to death, and that the Nazi doctor deserved to live a life of luxury.  Would you suggest that they are simply living out their Dharma? You should learn a little about Karma before presuming to speak on the subject. Now, to answer your specific points: The earliest form of Karma was probably only an observation of cause and effect.  Then the Vedics introduced the notion of Dharma, as a means of supporting the caste system:  a family of priests should always remain priests;  a family of warriors should always remain warriors;  a family of craftsmen should always remain craftsmen;  a family of merchants should always remain merchants;  and a family of slaves should always remain slaves.  The Vedic belief system evolved into what we know today as Hinduism.  There is probably a great deal of native Indian belief mixed into the Vedic system to form Hinduism, but the idea of Karma came from the Vedics, and evolved into one of the major tenets of the Hindu religion, primarily as a means of supporting *Indian cultural stratification* (the caste system, a notion which is largely alien to the West–and certainly useless in today’s Western society).    So tell us, Nella — where do YOU think the Hindus got their notions of Karma? As for the Christian idea of "glory," Christianity has NO exact equivalent of Karma in its undiluted form.  It /does/ have some basic ideals which NewAgers sometimes connect with their idea of Karma.  The NewAge (rhymes with "sewage") concept of Karma is simply old Christianity with a new Eastern face.  Now, Nella, tell us:  are you a Pagan or a Christian? Kerry: I hate bats?  Okay, Nella.  You just proved it for the world to see. You’re INSANE. Nella: *** Yes, the statement batty came around by the need to downgrade bats. How else do you explain the term " batty " ???

Comes from "bats in the belfry."  Doesn’t "downgrade" bats, simply says you have them fluttering around in the cobweb-ridden, dark, open space which your addled brain once called its home.   And Nella?  Simply by insisting in this ridiculous fashion that I hate and harm animals, by your stooping to inventing false etymology, you have proven my point. Nella: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We cannot escape death, and if we kill other things in the process of running, we’re only going to pay the price 3 fold. Kerry: Yes, of course, that’s right.  The big bad Universe will zap us. Nella: *** No, the Goddess will … or atleast she’ll zap your butt! I protect the animals, you harm them. Kerry: How do I harm animals, Nella?  Care to explain that strange theory you’ve pulled out of your ass? Nella: **** By starting this shit in the first place, calling them something that many pagans do not feel …. " lower animals ". Maybe lower mentally, evolutionary, but to many of us they have souls and much more. Your attitude degrades their existance and if you just re-read some of the things that you put in the newsgroups under this topic, you’d realize that you sound as though you dispise people who try to help erase the cruelty that people have inflicted upon animals in general. You sound as though you really expect some of us to be influenced into believing that the animals aren’t worth the effort to save, or protect, period. I am not being picky with you, that is how you appeared to me. I do not carry grudges. I do not keep track of when I spoke to you last, and whatnot, I just know how you came off on this topic, and what you wrote.

Oh, of course.  I’m an evil, cruel, nasty harmer of animals, because I sometimes refer to them as "lower animals," meaning "non-human."  Do you believe your Goddess will "zap" me for exercising my cherished right to free speech, without causing any harm to anyone or anything? Kerry: Sure.  Let’s wait and see if your Goddess "zaps" me (so much for a benevolent god).  And wait.  And wait.  And wait some more…. Nella: **** I’m sure you’ll keep waiting too ( 3 fold ). Forget it, you’d have to know about karma in any view to get it. Go run to God, whoever he is to you.

Tell me, Nella, in your system of threefold returns, what is the price for killing?  Do you die three times in return?   What about animals?  They kill, sometimes for pleasure, sometimes for sport — does your bastardized "Karma," your "Threefold Law" zap /them/ threefold? You’re nearly right, Nella, in saying "you’d have to know about karma in any view to get it."  Let me correct that statement slightly:  You have to believe in NewAgey ‘Karma’ and/or the Threefold Law in order to be harmed by them."  You bring the repercussions on yourself. Nella

-K.Delf            KERRY L. DELF  ||  HANLON’S RAZOR:                           ||  Never attribute to malice that which can             E-MAILED RESPONSES TO USENET POSTS MAY BE POSTED

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