Talk Cancer

Question:

With 25 years of experience , most in the Fla. Keys, I also am not too enthusiastic about giving you all my secrets and techniques accumulated through the years. As far as charging for work not actually done, I usually "bid" a job, and as a result do it for the quoted amount, many times at my loss, but occasionaly luck out and do it in less than the estimated time. MY experience and very expensive tools justify my rates. Any customer has the option of taking his boat to any yard he chooses, but in my neck of the woods I get work because of my reputation , not in spite of it.

 If you are doing many jobs at a loss it would seem that your  25 years experience and your "secrets and techniques" haven’t  helped you much.  Your reputation has not found its way to my door, despite the fact  that I use my boat in the same areas that you claim to have this  reputation and I am always looking out for a good outboard mechanic.  I’ll be quite happy to give you the benefit of the doubt though, if  you care to give me some references from satisfied customers (even  the assholes?) and reputable boatyards that you do business with in  the Keys and the Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood/Pompano areas. I’ll be sure  to share the information with the newsgroup if you wish. — Ed Kelly

Response:

 I’m not trying to hide any thing from anybody, but I agree with the others that say they won’t work on a customers boat in his presence most of the time. It just makes me nervous. Answering Question about why I choose to do something my way vs the customers way is not only annoying, but takes from concentration.A customer who takes your attitude is a customer I don’t need or want! With 25 years of experience , most in the Fla. Keys, I also am not too enthusiastic about giving you all my secrets and techniques accumulated through the years. As far as charging for work not actually done, I usually "bid" a job, and as a result do it for the quoted amount, many times at my loss, but occasionaly luck out and do it in less than the estimated time. MY experience and very expensive tools justify my rates. Any customer has the option of taking his boat to any yard he chooses, but in my neck of the woods I get work because of my reputation , not in spite of it. Customers also develop a reputation, like yours, and as marine technicians we have several names we apply to such customers,one of which is ASSHOLES. TJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would you also insist on going into the kitchen of a fine restaurant Sorry, but anyone with this sort of attitude doesn’t get my business. In the first place, it’s my money being spent, and if you don’t want me to see how you’re spending it, I have to think you’re concealing something from me.  Most of the time I have better things to do than hang around the boatyard watching, but if I want to, and you want my money, you’d better be cheerful about it. In the second place, many owners are more knowledgeable than many boatyard peons.  If this is the case, and the owner helps, the job does go a lot faster, but I’m sorry, you can’t triple your charges to make up the difference in your profit margin. It always amazes me when someone who purports to be in business comes right out and tells the world that his preferences are more important than his customers’ and that they’ll just have to put up with this situation if they want to be able to give him their money.  I just

Response:

I won’t touch that one about not questioning  your lawyer; too easy. However, there’s an interesting fact about doctors that seems to apply to this situation.  Patients with potentially terminal diseases, like cancer, can be categorized (with infinite gradations between) as "passive" or "difficult."  The passive patients accept whatever their doctor tells them, in terms of treatment and rarely bother to get a second opinion, etc.  The "difficult" patients question everything; they don’t rely on their doctor to be right, they seek out second and third and fourth opinions, they do their own research.  Surprise! They live a lot longer than the passive patients.   Ray http://eightsea.com/eightsea/home.html

That’s interesting.  Do you have the references for those facts?  A controlled, double-blind study, perhaps?  I would like to read and evaluate the papers…no sense wasting all those undergrad and graduate courses…thanks. —Leander

Response:

Right on Randy TJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aldridge) writes: Ahhhh…. poor baby is nervous!  Is Mama’s wittle marine technician scared of the Big Bad Customer? One reason that I don’t allow customers to look over  technician’s shoulders and offer advice/ask questions is that it distracts the tech and slows the work.  We bid a job based on experience of the time it takes to complete.  Customer’s don’t seem to understand that their ‘help’ adds to the time it takes to complete the work.  If a water pump replacement is quoted based on 3 hours labor, what would the customer’s reaction be to a 33% increase for the time wasted by their presence?  Another concern is that breaks in concentration cause mistakes, why would a customer want lower quality work, that takes longer, and is therfore more expensive?  We try to spend all the time it takes to go over the proposed repairs before we quote the job, and spend time with customers to make sure they understand the charges.  We have very high customer satisfaction ratings, we treat our customers fairly and have earned their trust.  We do incourage interaction between techs and customers if we are diagnosing a problem, first hand information from the customer usually reduces the time spent locating the problem and thus saves the tech time and the customer money.  Once the problem is diagnosed and the repair quoted, it is in the customer’s best interest to let the tech get on with it and return when the job is completed. Randy Hough

Response:

I’m not trying to hide any thing from anybody, but I agree with the others that say they won’t work on a customers boat in his presence most of the time. It just makes me nervous.

     That’s the real issue….nervous that someone watches.  Take it from      who feels the same but has no choice [comes with the job]…you get      used to it, more or less.   Answering Question about why I choose to do something my way vs the customers way is not only annoying, but takes from concentrati=

on.      True, but (A) maybe your way isn’t the only or best way 100% of the      time, and (B) maybe the customer is trying to learn [see below]. A customer who takes your attitude is a customer I don’t need or want!

     Petty.  Very petty. With 25 years of experience , most in the Fla. Keys, I also am not too enthusiastic about giving you all my secrets and techniques=

 accumulated through the years.      The best craftsmen in various fields I have met over the years are      also the best teachers I have found.  They have graciously imparted      their experience and wisdom to others, and we were the better for      it.  On the other hand, I understand your financial motivations to      try to remain unique.  However, if you truly do have unique "secrets      and techniques", don’t let them die with you. As far as charging for work not actually done, I usually "bid" a job, and as a result do it for the quoted amount, many times at m=

y loss, but occasionaly luck out and do it in less than the estimated time. MY experience and very expensive tools justify my rate= s.       If you’re good, sure. Any customer has the option of taking his boat to any yard he chooses, but in my neck of the woods I get work because of my reputa=

tion , not in spite of it.       Like I said… Customers also develop a reputation, like yours, and as marine technicians we have several names we apply to such customers,one of=

 which is ASSHOLES.       Petty and childish.       There is a big difference between grilling you and trying to learn       from you.  This is not an issue of stealing your secrets or being a       troublemaker.  Nor is it an issue of who pays the tab.       You may repair the boat, but I’m the one on it in the middle of an       ocean when anything can happen.  The more I know about how to make       effective, quick, efficient repairs, the better chance I have of         of getting myself and my boat back to shore where permanent repairs       can then be made by the experts.         Your nervousness doesn’t matter much compared to my life.       So lighten up.  We don’t want to rob you of work.  We just want to learn enough to stay alive when the chips are down.   —Leander

Response:

Your reputation has not found its way to my door, despite the fact that I use my boat in the same areas that you claim to have this reputation and I am always looking out for a _good outboard mechanic._

   (emphasis added)     Oh boy, looks like we’ve got a REAL yachtsman here.                       Pat Ford-Ford Boat Works-Seattle-206-789-2456 Classic Speedboat Repair for Twenty Years Pacific Northwest Chapter-Antique and Classic Boat Society  web pages: http://www.halcyon.com/pford/acbsx.htm

Response:

: I owned a boatyard and never allowed customers to watch our work. : There are many good reasons for this but just think about how you : would feel if somebody looked over your shoulder while you work and : made comments, asked questions etc. : This is a frequent problem in the boating industry: customers who : would not question their surgeon or lawyer’s actions feel that they

I work in the Pharmaceutical Industry as a Pharmaceutical Development Scientist.  All of my work is closely scrutinized by the FDA and the doctors who intend to inject my drug products into humans.  I must document everything I do and and sometimes I actually have to let somebody observe what I am doing or have it videotaped.  Sure it can make me nervous and affect my concentration, but lives are at stake and I must deal with it.  Mistakes are still made, but nothing in comparison to what would happen if nobody questioned.  Look at the current situation with doctors (amputating the wrong legs).  Doctors and boatyard technicians can literally hold lives in their hands just as I do.  If you screw up, someone can die.  So get off your high horse you pompous ass.

Response:

: I owned a boatyard and never allowed customers to watch our work. : There are many good reasons for this but just think about how you : would feel if somebody looked over your shoulder while you work and : made comments, asked questions etc. : This is a frequent problem in the boating industry: customers who : would not question their surgeon or lawyer’s actions feel that they I understand what you are saying but if you won’t answer questions about your work then people would be well advised not to deal with you.  I know someone who pointed out to the surgeon that he was about to operate on the wrong foot.  I have had three non-litigous dealings with lawyers and all three would have cost me a bundle if I had not "questioned" what they were doing.  I have seen many situations where the "expert" says something like "are you trying to teach me my job" and then proceeds to make a mess of it.  That is usually the result of trying to point out some obscure little thing you think he ought to know but might miss–and he does. I would not look over someone’s shoulder while they were doing the work, at least not without asking first.  But I will certainly ask what and why before you start, and then will ask basically the same questions afterwards. Last time I did NOT do that, my trailer brakes smoked because they did not replace a part that I specifically asked to be replaced; the rest of the job was fine.  They later pleaded that the part seemed fine: I knew it was intermittent when I took it in, which is why I wanted it "replaced" and not "checked". If you really feel that having customers question you is a "frequent problem" then perhaps you are in the wrong line of work.  I suspect, however, that you did not really mean to sound that intractable. B.S!

Response:

Aldridge) writes: Ahhhh…. poor baby is nervous!  Is Mama’s wittle marine technician scared of the Big Bad Customer?

One reason that I don’t allow customers to look over  technician’s shoulders and offer advice/ask questions is that it distracts the tech and slows the work.  We bid a job based on experience of the time it takes to complete.  Customer’s don’t seem to understand that their ‘help’ adds to the time it takes to complete the work.  If a water pump replacement is quoted based on 3 hours labor, what would the customer’s reaction be to a 33% increase for the time wasted by their presence?  Another concern is that breaks in concentration cause mistakes, why would a customer want lower quality work, that takes longer, and is therfore more expensive?  We try to spend all the time it takes to go over the proposed repairs before we quote the job, and spend time with customers to make sure they understand the charges.  We have very high customer satisfaction ratings, we treat our customers fairly and have earned their trust.  We do incourage interaction between techs and customers if we are diagnosing a problem, first hand information from the customer usually reduces the time spent locating the problem and thus saves the tech time and the customer money.  Once the problem is diagnosed and the repair quoted, it is in the customer’s best interest to let the tech get on with it and return when the job is completed. Randy Hough

Response:

I owned a boatyard and never allowed customers to watch our work. There are many good reasons for this but just think about how you would feel if somebody looked over your shoulder while you work and made comments, asked questions etc.

This is called "reality."  Most of the folks in the world have someone looking over their shoulder while they work, making comments, asking questions, etc.  That someone is called "the boss."  When I pay folks to work for me, I’m the boss.  If they don’t want to be supervised, I fire them.   This is a frequent problem in the boating industry: customers who would not question their surgeon or lawyer’s actions feel that they can interfere with a boat yard’s work.

I won’t touch that one about not questioning  your lawyer; too easy. However, there’s an interesting fact about doctors that seems to apply to this situation.  Patients with potentially terminal diseases, like cancer, can be categorized (with infinite gradations between) as "passive" or "difficult."  The passive patients accept whatever their doctor tells them, in terms of treatment and rarely bother to get a second opinion, etc.  The "difficult" patients question everything; they don’t rely on their doctor to be right, they seek out second and third and fourth opinions, they do their own research.  Surprise! They live a lot longer than the passive patients. Passive boat owners get screwed at the boatyard.  It doesn’t have to be intentional, but it happens. Smart owners will keep an eye peeled. Ray http://eightsea.com/eightsea/home.html

Response:

My customers return to me for additional repairs,as well as reccomend me to thier friends. I do not spend any money on advertising, as word of mouth is my best billboard. I do care about my customers and they frequently come by just to chat or get free advice. I guess you’re right about me not knowing how to conduct business, I am a small business and intend on staying that way. I’m making a living, not getting rich. I’ve never had a customer who even threatened to sue me, and can count on one hand the number of unhappy ones. I must be doing something wrong— I guess. TJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I’m not trying to hide any thing from anybody, but I agree with the <snipped    , but in my neck of the woods I get work because of my  reputation , not in spite of it. Customers also develop a reputation,  like yours, and as marine technicians we have several names we apply to  such customers,one of which is ASSHOLES.  TJ I suspect that you also get business in spite of your attitude.  As customers and consumers, on which marine technicians are dependent for a living, we have several names we apply to such arrogant jerks as you.  If I lived in Florida, I would drop by for no other reason than to let you know there is no chance in hell that you’ll ever see a dime’s worth of my business, but you probably could care less – you obviously have all the work you need, regardless of how you treat your customers.

Response:

The analogy to looking over the shoulder of a chef or a lawyer (or a doctor) is not exact, but is instructive.  For one thing, a lot of boaters do work on their own boat.  For another, when your lawyer, doctor or boatyard finishes their work, your ass is riding on the result, and the more you understand about their work, including helping make decisions while it’s happening, the better prepared you are to deal with the future effects of it. Walt Bilofsky Golden Phoenix (Cape Dory 30 Poweryacht) San Francisco Bay

Actually, you ARE present when your doctor is doing the work [on you] … how else could you be examined?  :) —Leander

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The analogy to looking over the shoulder of a chef or a lawyer (or a doctor) is not exact, but is instructive.  For one thing, a lot of boaters do work on their own boat.  For another, when your lawyer, doctor or boatyard finishes their work, your ass is riding on the result, and the more you understand about their work, including helping make decisions while it’s happening, the better prepared you are to deal with the future effects of it. Walt Bilofsky Golden Phoenix (Cape Dory 30 Poweryacht) San Francisco Bay Actually, you ARE present when your doctor is doing the work [on you] … how else could you be examined?  :) —Leander

For me, I’m very clear with people doing the work that I’d like to be present and observe. They can bid the project anyway they want. I’ve paid some people to show me how to perform tasks. I’ve also been paid by people to do the same. Personally, I wouldn’t use someone who wouldn’t let me watch. jw

Response:

ALLRIGHT!!! point taken I will stop being anal and treat them with a bit more respect!!!  Hell I’m even going to buy them beer at this point…The problem is, as with all projects, my funds are limited and I would like to actually keep the boat instead of giving it to the yard cause I can’t pay the bill. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Please help me with the following:  <snipped  This seemed to be a game to them!  Has anyone out there had a similar experience?  Can anyone explain why  they appear to not want to do any work while the owner is around?  Are there any other sailing related businesses that need to be treated  similarly?  Sailmakers?  Riggers?  Diesel mechanics? Dean – let us know who and where – I’d love to avoid them. Thanks! Would you also insist on going into the kitchen of a fine restaurant to make sure the chef is cooking properly or to get his secrets of years of experience….Or hang out at the lawyers office to do the same ? Labor Rates: $35 /hr $50 /hr if you watch $100 /hr if you help TJ

Response:

I had a similar experience with a local yard. . . . I like to be involved when things are done to my boat – partly to understand the boat, and partly just my personality.  I understand that may be irritating to many yard people, and try to find ones that can work with me.

I owned a boatyard and never allowed customers to watch our work. There are many good reasons for this but just think about how you would feel if somebody looked over your shoulder while you work and made comments, asked questions etc. This is a frequent problem in the boating industry: customers who would not question their surgeon or lawyer’s actions feel that they can interfere with a boat yard’s work. We understand the interest that you have in your boat and some customers are really knowledgeable about their boats but still, I can’t work with somebody watching over my shoulder. Sorry. Jacques Mertens / Mertens-Goossens NA  Boat Plans Online! http://www.bateau.com/

Response:

You mean you trust your lawyer implicitly?  I’m not sure whether to admire or pity you! You bet I’ll check up on them – I may not stand in the kitchen and watch the chef, but I’ll sure get a few references before I trust him with my life! BTW, the repair facility I use is happy for me to watch, ask questions, etc.  They seem to have nothing to hide – as a result, I trust them with my boat – they don’t prepare my food, though <G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Please help me with the following:    <snipped  Would you also insist on going into the kitchen of a fine restaurant to  make sure the chef is cooking properly or to get his secrets of years of  experience….Or hang out at the lawyers office to do the same ?  Labor Rates:  $35 /hr  $50 /hr if you watch  $100 /hr if you help  TJ

Response:

Would you also insist on going into the kitchen of a fine restaurant to make sure the chef is cooking properly or to get his secrets of years of experience….Or hang out at the lawyers office to do the same ? Labor Rates: $35 /hr $50 /hr if you watch $100 /hr if you help

Sorry, but anyone with this sort of attitude doesn’t get my business. In the first place, it’s my money being spent, and if you don’t want me to see how you’re spending it, I have to think you’re concealing something from me.  Most of the time I have better things to do than hang around the boatyard watching, but if I want to, and you want my money, you’d better be cheerful about it. In the second place, many owners are more knowledgeable than many boatyard peons.  If this is the case, and the owner helps, the job does go a lot faster, but I’m sorry, you can’t triple your charges to make up the difference in your profit margin. It always amazes me when someone who purports to be in business comes right out and tells the world that his preferences are more important than his customers’ and that they’ll just have to put up with this situation if they want to be able to give him their money.  I just don’t get it.   Ray http://eightsea.com/eightsea/home.html

Response:

It’s the same reason there are no windows in kindergartens: anxious parents staring in at their babies, making the teachers (and the kids) nervous.   –scott

Response:

I’m not trying to hide any thing from anybody, but I agree with the others that say they won’t work on a customers boat in his presence most of the time. It just makes me nervous.

Ahhhh…. poor baby is nervous!  Is Mama’s wittle marine technician scared of the Big Bad Customer? Grow up. Answering Question about why I choose to do something my way vs the customers way is not only annoying, but takes from concentration.A customer who takes your attitude is a customer I don’t need or want!

I’ll be sure not to inflict my attitude and checkbook on you, since clearly you’re ill-equipped to cope with customers who’ve been fortunate enough to be born with a spine. With 25 years of experience , most in the Fla. Keys, I also am not too enthusiastic about giving you all my secrets and techniques accumulated through the years.

This is a joke, right? As far as charging for work not actually done, I usually "bid" a job, and as a result do it for the quoted amount, many times at my loss, but occasionaly luck out and do it in less than the estimated time. MY experience and very expensive tools justify my rates. Any customer has the option of taking his boat to any yard he chooses, but in my neck of the woods I get work because of my reputation , not in spite of it.

Will wonders never cease?  Actually, my guess is that you don’t actually own a boatyard; you’re probably just one of those guys who has a pickup and a toolrack and a resale number.  I might be wrong, but you don’t sound as if you know enough about business to deal with overhead, employees, and all the other details that go to make up a successful operation. Customers also develop a reputation, like yours, and as marine technicians we have several names we apply to such customers,one of which is ASSHOLES.

Several other terms might apply to anyone masochistic enough to give any of their hard-earned cash to a self-important little jackass like you.  "Spineless pushover" comes to mind.  "Ignorant" or "desperate" might fit other situations.  "Entirely lacking in self-respect" clearly applies. If I’m wrong, and you actually do own a yard, you’d better hope and pray that no one who understands the importance of customer relations comes along and starts another yard next door.  He’ll get most of your customers, and do you know why? Because (and here’s a clue, worth writing down and sticking up on the office corkboard)  even spineless pushovers don’t like being mistreated, and if offered an alternative, they’ll go elsewhere. Ray http://eightsea.com/eightsea/home.html

Response:

  I’m not trying to hide any thing from anybody, but I agree with the <snipped    , but in my neck of the woods I get work because of my  reputation , not in spite of it. Customers also develop a reputation,  like yours, and as marine technicians we have several names we apply to  such customers,one of which is ASSHOLES.  TJ

I suspect that you also get business in spite of your attitude.  As customers and consumers, on which marine technicians are dependent for a living, we have several names we apply to such arrogant jerks as you.  If I lived in Florida, I would drop by for no other reason than to let you know there is no chance in hell that you’ll ever see a dime’s worth of my business, but you probably could care less – you obviously have all the work you need, regardless of how you treat your customers.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Please help me with the following:  <snipped  This seemed to be a game to them!  Has anyone out there had a similar experience?  Can anyone explain why  they appear to not want to do any work while the owner is around?  Are there any other sailing related businesses that need to be treated  similarly?  Sailmakers?  Riggers?  Diesel mechanics? Dean – let us know who and where – I’d love to avoid them. Thanks!

Would you also insist on going into the kitchen of a fine restaurant to make sure the chef is cooking properly or to get his secrets of years of experience….Or hang out at the lawyers office to do the same ? Labor Rates: $35 /hr $50 /hr if you watch $100 /hr if you help TJ

Response:

Most mechanics (including myself when I was one) will do most anything to avoid working on a car or boat when the owner is present.  It makes them nervous, for several reasons.  I would recommend finding someone you feel you can trust, (easier said than done) buy them lunch,and then go away.   — Tim McCrain         "A dream without action is a fantasy…

Response:

I had a similar experience with a local yard.  I arranged to have my boat hauled, a transducer placed under the supervision of my electronics vendor, and the boat splashed.  This took some coordinating to get it done the same day.  Sparing the details, every time everyone else was ready, the yard had some reason to wait an hour.  They eventually kept the boat out of the water overnight.   A yard employee suggested to me that the foreman just didn’t take well to working under supervision.  The shrinks call his behavior passive aggressive.  I call it a message to find another yard, which I did, run by a guy that doesn’t mind explaining things and working with me. When he tells me there was a surprise, I trust him.   I like to be involved when things are done to my boat – partly to understand the boat, and partly just my personality.  I understand that may be irritating to many yard people, and try to find ones that can work with me. The analogy to looking over the shoulder of a chef or a lawyer (or a doctor) is not exact, but is instructive.  For one thing, a lot of boaters do work on their own boat.  For another, when your lawyer, doctor or boatyard finishes their work, your ass is riding on the result, and the more you understand about their work, including helping make decisions while it’s happening, the better prepared you are to deal with the future effects of it. Walt Bilofsky Golden Phoenix (Cape Dory 30 Poweryacht) San Francisco Bay

Response:

 Please help me with the following:  <snipped  This seemed to be a game to them!  Has anyone out there had a similar experience?  Can anyone explain why  they appear to not want to do any work while the owner is around?  Are there any other sailing related businesses that need to be treated  similarly?  Sailmakers?  Riggers?  Diesel mechanics?

Dean – let us know who and where – I’d love to avoid them. Thanks!

Response:

Please help me with the following: I am having much work done to a boat I just bought.  There was a bad electrolysis problem everywhere.  The prop strut, prop, lower rudder bearing, and even the spreaders are all gone.   When I took the boat a boat yard to have it hauled the people seemed a bit