Talk Cancer » Cancer Therapy

Orthomolecular Talk in Plymouth, MA

admin — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Finding Hope and Healing with the use of Alternatives in Cancer Therapy William and Susan Best, parents of Bill Best Jr.

Robert Levy is shilling for Sue and Bill Best who have numerous web pages – distributors for unrelated items and unproven cancer therapies. http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/VitaminTherapyM… "Patients suspected of having a poor nutritional status should have their diet evaluated by a dietician, physician, or nurse." You might want to add him to your "Block senders". J

Response:

My sincere apologies to all. I was looking at his post here and/but thought I was replying to his (same) post on another newsgroup. J

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In larger doses, vitamins have an action over and above the effect as food supplement. They correct brain chemistry like a drug but in a positive way without the serious side effects.

Some vitamins in excess have very serious side-effects. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

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Finding Hope and Healing with the use of Alternatives in Cancer Therapy William and Susan Best, parents of Bill Best Jr. Wednesday- March 3, 2004 7 PM Plymouth Public Library-Otto Fellow Room 32 South St. Plymouth Bill Best, Jr. contracted Hodgkin’s disease in 1994. He refused traditional chemotherapy and used natural therapies. Today he remains cancer free. Come hear as they share their journey in their fight against cancer. What is an Orthomolecular Physician? The orthomolecular physician balances the person’s body chemistry using natural substances and good nutrition as determined by a battery of scientific tests. Dr. Linus Pauling coined the word "orthomolecular" medicine. Ortho means right. Molecular refers to molecules. It is the treatment based on correcting to proper levels of concentration those substances which are normally present in the body, (vitamins, minerals, amino acids, enzymes, etc.), and in this way providing the optimum molecular environment for the mind and body. In larger doses, vitamins have an action over and above the effect as food supplement. They correct brain chemistry like a drug but in a positive way without the serious side effects. Vitamins may not be enough in early treatment of serious neurobiological illnesses. When drugs must be used, nutrients can enhance the actions of drugs resulting in lower dosages with less serious side effects. Nutrients are more cost effective than long-term drug therapy. As nutrients begin to correct brain chemistry, the person, along with his doctor’s awareness is able to slowly reduce the neuroleptic drugs and in some case stop them completely. The orthomolecular physician assesses a patient by a detailed history. The Experimental World Inventory (EWI), hypoglycemic susceptibility, thyroid levels, pyroluria, which is a metabolic waste product reaction, high and low histamine levels, vitamin B12 levels, heavy metal toxicity, bio assay of vitamins, neurotransmitter levels, wheat gluten sensitivity, mercury toxicity, candida albicans, alllergies and chemical sensitivities.

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HOW CAN I CONSERVE ENERGY? – Fatigue

admin — Wed, 04 Jun 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

J, Could you possibly not put your subjects in all caps? A well-known troll (Jay) is notorious for doing that and many of us skip by any posts where this is the case. Thanks. …lisa (don’t know why you’re yelling at us anyway…)

Response:

(don’t know why you’re yelling at us anyway…)

See "subject" (I’d just posted 7, IIRC and was in pain/fatique from all the copying and pasting). I was copying those (from the FAQ, since people have complained it’s too long to wade through and it’s stored that way in Google or Word) in the hope that they would be helpful to Elsie. Can’t promise it won’t happen again, if the opportunity seems to present and/or if/until the FAQ’s stored in this format

Response:

From a section in the FAQ about fatigue HOW CAN I CONSERVE ENERGY? – Plan ahead and organize your work. – Change where you store items to reduce trips or reaching. – Delegate tasks when possible. – Combine activities and simplify details. – Schedule rest. – Balance periods of rest and work. – Rest before you become fatigued — frequent, short rests are beneficial. – Pace yourself. – A moderate pace is better than rushing through activities. – Reduce sudden or prolonged strains. – Alternate sitting and standing. – Practice proper body mechanics. – When sitting, use a chair with good back support. Sit up with your back straight and your shoulders back. – Adjust the level of your work — work without bending over. – When bending to lift something, bend your knees and use your leg muscles to lift, not your back. Do not bend forward at the waist with your knees straight. – Carry several small loads instead of one large one, or use a cart. – Limit work that requires reaching over your head. – Use long-handled tools. – Store items lower. – Limit work that increases muscle tension (isometric work). – Breathe evenly, do not hold your breath. – Wear comfortable clothes to allow for free and easy breathing. – Identify effects of your environment. – Avoid extremes of temperature. – Eliminate smoke or harmful fumes. – Avoid long, hot showers or baths. – Prioritize your activities. – Decide what activities are important to you, and what could be delegated. – Use your energy on important tasks. HOW CAN NUTRITION AFFECT CRF? Cancer-Related Fatigue (CRF) is often made worse if you are not eating enough or if you are not eating the right foods. Maintaining good nutrition can help you feel better and have more energy. Try these tips: – Meet your basic calorie needs. The estimated calorie needs for someone with cancer is 15 calories per pound of weight if your weight has been stable. Add 500 calories per day if you have lost weight. Example: A person who weighs 150 pounds needs about 2,250 calories per day to maintain his or her weight. – Get plenty of protein. Protein rebuilds and repairs damaged (and normally aging) body tissue. The estimated protein needs are 0.5 to 0.6 grams of protein per pound of body weight. Example: A 150-pound person needs 75 to 90 grams of protein per day. The best sources of protein include foods from the dairy group (8 ounces milk = 8 grams protein) and meats (meat, fish or poultry = 7 grams of protein per ounce). – Drink plenty of fluids. A minimum of eight cups of fluid per day will prevent dehydration. (That’s 64 ounces, two quarts or one half-gallon). Fluids can include juice, milk, broth, milkshakes, gelatin and other beverages. Of course, water is fine, too. Beverages containing caffeine do NOT count. Keep in mind that you’ll need more fluids if you have treatment side effects such as vomiting or diarrhea. – Make sure you are getting enough vitamins. Take a vitamin supplement if you are not sure you are getting enough nutrients. A recommended supplement would be a multivitamin that provides at least 100 percent of the recommended daily allowances (RDA) for most nutrients. Note: Vitamin supplements do not provide calories, which are essential for energy production. So vitamins cannot substitute for adequate food intake. – Make an appointment with a dietitian. A registered dietitian can provide suggestions to work around any eating problems that may be interfering with proper nutrition (such as early feeling of fullness, swallowing difficulty, or taste changes). A dietitian can also suggest ways to maximize calories and include proteins in smaller amounts of food (such as powdered milk, instant breakfast drinks and other commercial supplements or food additives). WILL EXERCISE LESSEN CRF? Decreased physical activity, which may be the result of illness or of treatment, can lead to tiredness and lack of energy. Scientists have found that even healthy athletes forced to spend extended periods in bed or sitting in chairs develop feelings of anxiety, depression, weakness, fatigue, and nausea. Regular, moderate exercise can decrease these feelings, help you stay active and increase your energy. Even during cancer therapy, it is often possible to continue exercising. Here are some guidelines to keep in mind. – Check with your health-care provider before beginning an exercise program. – A good exercise program starts slowly, allowing your body time to adjust. – Keep a regular exercise schedule. Exercise at least three times a week. Even more dangerous than not exercising at all is exercising only occasionally. – The right kind of exercise never makes you feel sore, stiff or exhausted. If you experience soreness, stiffness, exhaustion or feel out of breath as a result of your exercise, you are overdoing it. – Most exercises are safe, as long as you exercise with caution and you don’t overdo it. The safest and most productive activities are swimming, brisk walking, indoor stationary cycling and low impact aerobics (taught by a certified instructor). These activities carry little risk of injury and benefit your entire body. CAN I MANAGE MY STRESS TO IMPROVE CRF? Managing stress can play an important role in combating fatigue. Here are some suggestions that may help. – Adjust your expectations. For example, if you have a list of 10 things you want to accomplish today, pare it down to two and leave the rest for other days. A sense of accomplishment goes a long way to reducing stress. – Help others understand and support you. Family and friends can be helpful if they can "put themselves in your shoes" and understand what fatigue means to you. Cancer groups can be a source of support as well. Other people with cancer understand what you are going through. – Relaxation techniques such as audiotapes that teach deep breathing or visualization can help reduce stress. – Activities that divert your attention away from fatigue can also be helpful. For example, activities such as knitting, reading or listening to music require little physical energy but require attention. – If your stress seems out of control, talk to a healthcare professional. They are there to help. AT WHAT POINT IN CRF SHOULD I CALL MY DOCTOR? Although cancer-related fatigue is a common, and often expected, side effect of cancer and its treatments, you should feel free to mention your concerns to your healthcare providers. There are times when fatigue may be a clue to an underlying medical problem. Other times, there may be medical interventions to help control fatigue. Finally, there may be suggestions that are more specific to your situation that would help in combating your fatigue. Be sure to let your doctor or nurse know if you have: – Increased shortness of breath with minimal exertion – Uncontrolled pain – Inability to control side effects from treatments (such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, or loss of appetite) – Uncontrollable anxiety or nervousness – Ongoing depression.

Response:

(don’t know why you’re yelling at us anyway…) See "subject" (I’d just posted 7, IIRC and was in pain/fatique from all the copying and pasting). I was copying those (from the FAQ, since people have complained it’s too long to wade through and it’s stored that way in Google or Word) in the hope that they would be helpful to Elsie.

I was wondering if it was just coincidence that you happened to post that section of the FAQ. Thanks for posting it, the suggestions are very helpful as I prepare myself the house and the kids for the upcoming weeks of treatments. Elsie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can’t promise it won’t happen again, if the opportunity seems to present and/or if/until the FAQ’s stored in this format

Response:

Dr. Day

admin — Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Has anyone here have an comments on Dr. Days treatments? be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net

Only Dr Day I know of http://www.drday.com/index.html john

Response:

Nothing of importance – as usual. Hey John! Thanks to C-burg – he reminded me that you are still a liar. I am sure you recall this for a few weeks ago. Any effort on your part to support your contention or was it just a lie? Here, let me repost: Timewaster, there are 3 orthodox cancer therapies, chemo, radiation and surgery. Go and use them, and stop wasting my time. john

Sorry John, but I am not going to let you off the hook quite that easily. I have shown – using your own words – that you are a liar. You have made a claim that there is propaganda out there showing that chemo is the only cure for cancer. Here, let me post it (in your very own words) again just to refresh your memory: "used propaganda to fool people into thinking there is only one type of cancer therapy–chemo."

You seem to have two choices: you can either deny that you made this claim or you can back it up with proof that your claim is true. Unfortuately, since Google never forgets, it’s going to be difficult for you to deny the fact that you ever made the claim in the first place. A simple search of http://groups.google.com finds the claim stated in your message: http://tinyurl.com/23ig (I ran the huge URL through tinyurl to make it fit on a line.) Your message shows up as Number 7 in the list. It’s obvious you can’t deny you made the claim, so your only alternative is to back it up with hard facts. As I said in the previous message, this is easily done by posting the URLs to conventional medicine web pages that support your claim. You know, something like Johns Hopkins or MD Anderson web pages that say chemo is the only cancer therapy. Finally, lacking that, you have finally, in writing and in front of the entire Usenet community that reads this site – proven yourself to be a liar. Nothing bold or noble or anything eles; just a common everyday liar. This leaves me with the option of following EVERY message you post with a copy of this message. You can make whatever claims you wish, but I can come right behind you and show that you are a common, proven liar. You can’t even yell slander or libel since your words will be posted with each message along with the URL pointing to your complete message in Google (and Google never forgets!) So, either find those statements that will back up your assertion or we can let the games begin! Or, just admit that you lied and we can all go on to other things. Eric Unofficial C8 Homepage http://www.ngc1514.com

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Has anyone here have an comments on Dr. Days treatments? be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net

Response:

Has anyone here have an comments on Dr. Days treatments? be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net

It’s a complete and utter load of bollox.

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<< Has anyone here have an comments on Dr. Days treatments? Her first tape, "Cancer doesn’t scare me any more" is worthless. Most of it is a diatribe against the medical profession followed by a few vague references to her ‘treatment’ plan. The second tape is more specific, containing details of a vegan type diet. As has been pointed out here many times – while fruits and vegetables are good for you and may be preventive for some cancers, there are only a few limited studies suggesting a therapeutic effect for existing disease. Rolf

Response:

cleft palate

admin — Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Among whites = 1/700 Among African Americans = 1/1100 (Less than that of India’s stats) Asian Americans = 1/2500 (*Far* less than that of India’s stats) This seems to be far different from what I have for ’stats’ ..

Well a full search seems to throw your stats for a loop .. Asians americans have the highest .. then caucasions .. then Black americans. The Native Indians have the HIGHEST rates .. and since they ALSO have a ten to one higher incidence of diabetes .. it fits VERY nicely into my theory of iron being involved .. BECAUSE the iron is KNOWN to be ‘closely involved’ in diabetes. http://ads.intelihealth.com/html.ng/Params.richmedia=yes&adType=vertad HW|~st,333|~r,WSIHW000|~b,*| Health News . . Gene Associated With Cleft Lip And Palate By Nancy Volkers InteliHealth News Service director of the Human Medical Genetics Program at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver. According to the March of Dimes, cleft lip and palate occurs in about one of every 1,000 white infants, about one of every 2,500 African-American infants, and about one in every 600 Asian-American infants. BIRTH DEFECT RISK FACTOR SERIES: ORAL CLEFTS There are racial/ethnic differences in risk for oral clefts. Asians have the highest risk (14:10,000 births), followed by whites (10:10,000 births) and African-Americans (4:10,000 births) (Das, 1995). Among Asians, the risk for oral clefts is higher among Far East Asians (Japanese, Chinese, Korean) and Filipinos than Pacific Islanders (Yoon, 1997). Type in "cleft palate statistics" — LOTS of sites will appear. Some present state generated stats, some for particular countries, some from cleft palate support groups, etc., etc. Some sites claim no racial/ethnic differences in the rates of the incidence of CP while others (including the one where I found the above information) obviously do. The various sites seem to agree that CP affects males more than females & that in approximately 70% of the cases of CP also involve a cleft lip as well.

But interestingly .. I have YET to find one which generates the Asians of having such a low incidence of cleft .. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Who loves ya. Tom I beg to differ on that last statement. Man, humans, homo sapiens, in NOT a "natural" eater of grains. Our jaws do not move sideways to grind grain like the herbivore. We do not have a crop with rocks in it to grind the grains like the birds. We do not have the enzymes to break down the cellulose sacks which contain the carbohydrate. Man must always process the grains in order to benefit from their nutrient content. Man, therefore, does not have the biochemical means to detoxify the phytic acid in grains. This explains the pharmacologic properties of this compound as it applies to man. The purpose of the phytic acid is to protect the grain, not to nourish man nor to make a supplement. The phytic acid is not a nutrient for humans. It is detriment, a toxic chemical compound which is a part of the chemical makeup of the grains. This is why the hygienists have always recommended soaking the grains to remove this water soluble, toxic component before grinding and baking the grains to make bread or grain products. Cee.

That is why phytic acid has such a profound effect on cancer .. it is BAD for us? Since it is found in EVERY cell of the human body .. this is BECAUSE we eat grains .. as ‘non eaters of grain’ ..? The cell has ‘evoluted’ to include this in the cell .. EVERY cell of the body? Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them? That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen.

Have you found some unsuccessful replications, TDN? The researchers are said to be looking for funding for animal studies as the next step. Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are.

Don’t dismiss the data because a hypothetical mechanism is faulty. The fields used are well within recommended ’safe’ limits and the treatment is inexpensive. If validated it could be a very useful therapy. Professor Lai believes this technique may have applications in cancer therapy as well Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity. Well like I said.. researchers HAVE looked and HAVE seen a correlation.

READ the article – some studies show a faint correlation, others did not, some shoed a negative correlation, but it’s not clear that there is a cause and effect behind it. It’s at the "deserves further investigation" stage, but dropping iron supplementation would kill more children than malaria does. The reports of increased parasite incidence are suspect: having enough of a medical system to do supplementation also means having enough of a medical system to diagnose parasites. I haven’t found any baseline studies that compare pre- and post- in the same populations. The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind. So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic. It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia. So what you’re saying is .. the ‘figures’ are ’skewed’ in that since more people are SURVIVING .. then there are MORE people who HAVE NOT DIED and thusly when looking at the figures .. there are more people ALIVE .. BUT ..they .. STILL .. ‘have’.. malaria .. SO .. it ‘looks’ like malaria has BECOME endemic.. BECAUSE the high rate of people who are still alive .. have malaria?

Would you rather be DEAD of iron deficiency anemia or ALIVE with malaria? The definition of "endemic" is "always present in an population", and malaria is and has been in African populations for eons. And the REASON they are still alive .. is BECAUSE of iron supplementation? Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria. Medicine is full of this kind of choice. And this is based on .. studies of WELL FED .. non starving .. non malnourished .. populations?

No … if you read the PDF I referred you to, it was sub-Saharan Africa for the most part, with some New Guinea studies. None of them are what I would call well-fed. Look at the map of endemic malaria areas! And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them? That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen. Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are. Well another ‘theory’ of yours shot to hell by actual research.

Cites please? I’ve never seen anything beyond the initial reports from the original researcher. And the fact you say the researchers are skewing / doctoring their findings .. leads one to believe you are willing to ‘pull anything’out of your hat to bolster your stance .. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Malaria DEPLETES iron stores. The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver.

My goof … the iron-based malarial pigment, hemezoin, is not recycled (or is recycled poorly … my parasitology classes focused on practical things like KILLING mosquitos), and is "sequestered" by macrophages, usually in the liver. The net result is that the body is having to replace RBC and hemeglobin at a fast rate and the parasites are removing the iron from the loop (permanently? temporarily? … at least for longer than the body planned on). The body controls the iron it has in it by absorption ..and downregulates the iron it absorbs when a set limit is met/hit. It simply absorbs ‘less of a percentage’ of the iron from your food.

So … iron supplementation should not cause an overload problem. If the body has enough, it just doesn’t absorb any. A problem we encountered with malaria (yes, Phoenix does get malaria cases, usually imported from tropical coastal Mexico) is that the transfusions used to treat severe cases MIGHT cause iron overload. But malaria itself is just inserting itself into the existing RBCs and can’t cause iron overload because it doesn’t have any way to import any. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron? India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA. The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate. If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World. Genetics? Lack of reporting? How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record. Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option. Again .. unreported .. cannot even be considered in this light BECAUSE that is the ONLY way one can actually ‘argue’ scientifically .. but as you have seen the statistics .. twice as much in the Western World would have to have ALOT of unreported deaths to account for THAT much of a discrepency.

How many autopsies do you think are done on infants in India? How many of their babies are born in huts with (if the wonan is lucky) only a village midwife. Death is reported as "died", and no one says anything about cause of death. I wonder what the incidence of cleft palate is NOW .. since iron fortification has been HALTED in the Scandanavians?

Well … you could always ask! Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The phytic acid is not a nutrient for humans. It is detriment, a toxic chemical compound which is a part of the chemical makeup of the grains. This is why the hygienists have always recommended soaking the grains to remove this water soluble, toxic component before grinding and baking the grains to make bread or grain products. Cee. That is why phytic acid has such a profound effect on cancer .. it is BAD for us?

Hi Tom, In my grad school days studying and researching cancer, none of the profs could explain why chemo worked. Why was the poison metabolized and transported to cancer sites? Consider that everything that enters the interior domain of the body is either a nutrient, neutral, or toxic in action. Chemo is certainly toxic. Consider that cancerous tumors may represent a toxic waste storage site for the body. This may well explain why these deadly poisons effect tumors more so than normal healthy cells. The drugs are transported to these sites as a means of body defense to protect normal healthy cells. Phytic acid is a toxic chemical utilized by the seeds for self protection. The body, recognizing the toxic properties, shunt the poison to a site in the body where it will do the least harm to healthy cells while it excretes all that it can. Since it is found in EVERY cell of the human body .. this is BECAUSE we eat grains .. as ‘non eaters of grain’ ..? The cell has ‘evoluted’ to include this in the cell .. EVERY cell of the body?

You lost me on that one. Cee.

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Type in "cleft palate statistics" — LOTS of sites will appear. Some present state generated stats, some for particular countries, some from cleft palate support groups, etc., etc. Some sites claim no racial/ethnic differences in the rates of the incidence of CP while others (including the one where I found the above information) obviously do. The various sites seem to agree that CP affects males more than females & that in approximately 70% of the cases of CP also involve a cleft lip as well. So this thread is obviously ‘targeted for termination’ ..

Okay. Have a nice day ..

You too. Michele

Response:

Among whites = 1/700 Among African Americans = 1/1100 (Less than that of India’s stats) Asian Americans = 1/2500 (*Far* less than that of India’s stats)

This seems to be far different from what I have for ’stats’ .. So this thread is obviously ‘targeted for termination’ .. Have a nice day .. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

I beg to differ on that last statement. Man, humans, homo sapiens, in NOT a "natural" eater of grains. Our jaws do not move sideways to grind grain like the herbivore. We do not have a crop with rocks in it to grind the grains like the birds. We do not have the enzymes to break down the cellulose sacks which contain the carbohydrate. Man must always process the grains in order to benefit from their nutrient content. Man, therefore, does not have the biochemical means to detoxify the phytic acid in grains. This explains the pharmacologic properties of this compound as it applies to man. The purpose of the phytic acid is to protect the grain, not to nourish man nor to make a supplement. The phytic acid is not a nutrient for humans. It is detriment, a toxic chemical compound which is a part of the chemical makeup of the grains. This is why the hygienists have always recommended soaking the grains to remove this water soluble, toxic component before grinding and baking the grains to make bread or grain products. Cee.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another statement .. based on? The facts posted. Choose to ignore them, but that doesn’t change ‘em. And your statements are based on…..? I point to the fact there IS a higher rate of cleft plate in the ‘nourished’ world and you simply .. state .. the ‘contrary’? There is NOT a higher rate of cleft palate amongst those in developed nations. Pray tell, Tom, where do YOU get your "facts"? I posted the statistics .. and they show India to have the lowest rates .. and UNLESS you consider a nation of ‘anemic’ people to BE the ‘nourished’ ones .. then you obviously don’t understand the meaning of ’statistical evidence’ .. Must be nice to not have to at the very least half assed attempt to show HOW you come up with the ’statement’. It is up to the person making the claim to prove it, not up to those who disagree to prove its negative. You started by asking for ways to prove your latest theory, so I see you can’t. No need to be upset with those who point out that you can’t. See above .. SAVING you work? That’s a laugh .. when it seems you don’t do any to begin with .. Aaah, Tom, your lack of factual debate is no reason to assume things about other posters in light of the fact that you know as little about me or any other poster here as you do about your iron theories which don’t hold water. Perhaps you have to work more than some of us who are well paid for out time & skill do, I wouldn’t know or care. Your lack of any proof to back up your ideas is your problem not mine, & your attempt to avoid that point is plain. [Perhaps you should put a little more effort into finding that proof or accept that many of your debaters will point that out.] Fred and michelle .. From another list .. Go back there .. They may believe you know what you are talking about .. BECAUSE of their simple lack of facts .. and YOUR espousing how you DO .. but .. we both have just seen in a short simple argument of OBVIOUS statistical evidence .. that you wouldn’t KNOW your //// from a hole in the ground. Actually by what I’ve seen of YOUR .. ‘debate’ and your constant references to the ‘Mercedes’ in the garage .. leads me to believe you might be more interested in ’stock prices’ and it seems may be well advised to stick with .. them. I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process). Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Now wait a minute — first iron from meat is the root of all health evils, now you’re addin’ to the list Tom. Your original position has been iron from meat causes diseases. Of course you’ve already added a little disclaimer about some vegetarians having some sort of genetic problem with other iron. Now you’re mixin’ in ideas about polished rice — you’re changing the theory & altering the idea to try to account for all the pieces that don’t fit your theory (& there’s lots of them). It doesn’t work. It does work .. Just because you can’t see how it does .. doesn’t make it any less so .. There are lots of causes to diseases, there are lots of preventions. To say that one thing causes all diseases is no more correct than saying 2 or 3 things call all diseases. Perhaps you’ll finally provide relevant material, studies, or statistics that back up your claim. I doubt it, but I always look forward to surprises! I doubt .. surprises .. wouldn’t meet you very often .. BECAUSE .. you wouldn’t be able to tell if they ARE a surprise or not .. seeing you can’t / don’t actually understand .. a thing of which you are speaking to ..

The rates of cleft palate in the U.S. are as follows: Among whites = 1/700 Among African Americans = 1/1100 (Less than that of India’s stats) Asian Americans = 1/2500 (*Far* less than that of India’s stats) It is more prevalent among males. If iron from meat was the deciding factor of the prevalence of cleft palate, there would be no differences between races or sexes living in the same country, for the most part eating the same type of diet. Your explanation? Michele P.S. Please do show any reference I’ve EVER made to a Mercedes in the garage (don’t like ‘em). It would of course be another lie of yours. You can’t back up your theories. C’est tout. Please do let me know when you figure out what you’re trying to prove. You don’t have a clue as of yet.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well .. it seems the researchers .. looked at the areas supplemented .. and DID find the malaria became endemic in those areas. So since malaria ‘feeds’ on iron .. and those with higher iron stores cannot kick the malaria .. but those with less iron stores CAN? Malria has been endemic in Africa nd the South SEas for centuries if not eons. Also, malaria does NOT "feed" on iron … it consumes the protein contents of the cell, leaving the iron behind. Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity. The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind. So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic. It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia. Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria. Medicine is full of this kind of choice. And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them? That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen. Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Malaria DEPLETES iron stores. The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron? India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA. The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate. If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World. Genetics? Lack of reporting? How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record. Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option. So since they have an incidence of *genetic* iron excess AND meat eating their incidence of cleft palate being related to iron IS consistent with my theory. FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake. Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate. Hmmm .. how would they know this? Vitamin A excess in a dog? Studies? Yes … done in beagles years ago. Over-supplementing pets is causing problems. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data. TSU excellent response ….very factual,,easy to understand thanks bob

Yes, TDN, thanks for saving me the trouble of putting this info together when Tom started the iron/cleft palate connection (sorry, only meat eaters’ iron/cleft palate connection) thread. Everything (from the rate of those born with cleft palate in developing nations to consideration of the diet consumed by the majority of people in those cultures) points to iron supplementation &/or eating meat *not* being a consideration in the occurence of cleft palate. I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process). Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is Michele

Response:

Another statement .. based on? The facts posted. Choose to ignore them, but that doesn’t change ‘em. And your statements are based on…..? I point to the fact there IS a higher rate of cleft plate in the ‘nourished’ world and you simply .. state .. the ‘contrary’? There is NOT a higher rate of cleft palate amongst those in developed nations. Pray tell, Tom, where do YOU get your "facts"?

I posted the statistics .. and they show India to have the lowest rates .. and UNLESS you consider a nation of ‘anemic’ people to BE the ‘nourished’ ones .. then you obviously don’t understand the meaning of ’statistical evidence’ .. Must be nice to not have to at the very least half assed attempt to show HOW you come up with the ’statement’. It is up to the person making the claim to prove it, not up to those who disagree to prove its negative. You started by asking for ways to prove your latest theory, so I see you can’t. No need to be upset with those who point out that you can’t.

See above .. SAVING you work? That’s a laugh .. when it seems you don’t do any to begin with .. Aaah, Tom, your lack of factual debate is no reason to assume things about other posters in light of the fact that you know as little about me or any other poster here as you do about your iron theories which don’t hold water. Perhaps you have to work more than some of us who are well paid for out time & skill do, I wouldn’t know or care. Your lack of any proof to back up your ideas is your problem not mine, & your attempt to avoid that point is plain. [Perhaps you should put a little more effort into finding that proof or accept that many of your debaters will point that out.]

Fred and michelle .. From another list .. Go back there .. They may believe you know what you are talking about .. BECAUSE of their simple lack of facts .. and YOUR espousing how you DO .. but .. we both have just seen in a short simple argument of OBVIOUS statistical evidence .. that you wouldn’t KNOW your //// from a hole in the ground. Actually by what I’ve seen of YOUR .. ‘debate’ and your constant references to the ‘Mercedes’ in the garage .. leads me to believe you might be more interested in ’stock prices’ and it seems may be well advised to stick with .. them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process). Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Now wait a minute — first iron from meat is the root of all health evils, now you’re addin’ to the list Tom. Your original position has been iron from meat causes diseases. Of course you’ve already added a little disclaimer about some vegetarians having some sort of genetic problem with other iron. Now you’re mixin’ in ideas about polished rice — you’re changing the theory & altering the idea to try to account for all the pieces that don’t fit your theory (& there’s lots of them). It doesn’t work.

It does work .. Just because you can’t see how it does .. doesn’t make it any less so .. There are lots of causes to diseases, there are lots of preventions. To say that one thing causes all diseases is no more correct than saying 2 or 3 things call all diseases. Perhaps you’ll finally provide relevant material, studies, or statistics that back up your claim. I doubt it, but I always look forward to surprises!

I doubt .. surprises .. wouldn’t meet you very often .. BECAUSE .. you wouldn’t be able to tell if they ARE a surprise or not .. seeing you can’t / don’t actually understand .. a thing of which you are speaking to .. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

Another statement .. based on?

The facts posted. Choose to ignore them, but that doesn’t change ‘em. And your statements are based on…..? I point to the fact there IS a higher rate of cleft plate in the ‘nourished’ world and you simply .. state .. the ‘contrary’?

There is NOT a higher rate of cleft palate amongst those in developed nations. Pray tell, Tom, where do YOU get your "facts"? Must be nice to not have to at the very least half assed attempt to show HOW you come up with the ’statement’.

It is up to the person making the claim to prove it, not up to those who disagree to prove its negative. You started by asking for ways to prove your latest theory, so I see you can’t. No need to be upset with those who point out that you can’t. SAVING you work? That’s a laugh .. when it seems you don’t do any to begin with ..

Aaah, Tom, your lack of factual debate is no reason to assume things about other posters in light of the fact that you know as little about me or any other poster here as you do about your iron theories which don’t hold water. Perhaps you have to work more than some of us who are well paid for out time & skill do, I wouldn’t know or care. Your lack of any proof to back up your ideas is your problem not mine, & your attempt to avoid that point is plain. [Perhaps you should put a little more effort into finding that proof or accept that many of your debaters will point that out.] I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process). Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron.

Now wait a minute — first iron from meat is the root of all health evils, now you’re addin’ to the list Tom. Your original position has been iron from meat causes diseases. Of course you’ve already added a little disclaimer about some vegetarians having some sort of genetic problem with other iron. Now you’re mixin’ in ideas about polished rice — you’re changing the theory & altering the idea to try to account for all the pieces that don’t fit your theory (& there’s lots of them). It doesn’t work. There are lots of causes to diseases, there are lots of preventions. To say that one thing causes all diseases is no more correct than saying 2 or 3 things call all diseases. Perhaps you’ll finally provide relevant material, studies, or statistics that back up your claim. I doubt it, but I always look forward to surprises! Michele

Response:

Another statement .. based on? I point to the fact there IS a higher rate of cleft plate in the ‘nourished’ world and you simply .. state .. the ‘contrary’? Must be nice to not have to at the very least half assed attempt to show HOW you come up with the ’statement’. SAVING you work? That’s a laugh .. when it seems you don’t do any to begin with .. I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process). Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is

Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

excellent response ….very factual,,easy to understand thanks

WOW – I think I’ll FRAME this one! Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

Response:

Well .. it seems the researchers .. looked at the areas supplemented .. and DID find the malaria became endemic in those areas. So since malaria ‘feeds’ on iron .. and those with higher iron stores cannot kick the malaria .. but those with less iron stores CAN? Malria has been endemic in Africa nd the South SEas for centuries if not eons. Also, malaria does NOT "feed" on iron … it consumes the protein contents of the cell, leaving the iron behind.

You talk like you know what you are talking about but it seems you don’t. Don’t feel bad though ..not many people DO ..’understand’ how the immune system works. Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity.

Well like I said.. researchers HAVE looked and HAVE seen a correlation. The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind. So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic. It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia.

So what you’re saying is .. the ‘figures’ are ’skewed’ in that since more people are SURVIVING .. then there are MORE people who HAVE NOT DIED and thusly when looking at the figures .. there are more people ALIVE .. BUT ..they .. STILL .. ‘have’.. malaria .. SO .. it ‘looks’ like malaria has BECOME endemic.. BECAUSE the high rate of people who are still alive .. have malaria? And the REASON they are still alive .. is BECAUSE of iron supplementation? Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria. Medicine is full of this kind of choice.

And this is based on .. studies of WELL FED .. non starving .. non malnourished .. populations? And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them? That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen. Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are.

Well another ‘theory’ of yours shot to hell by actual research. And the fact you say the researchers are skewing / doctoring their findings .. leads one to believe you are willing to ‘pull anything’out of your hat to bolster your stance .. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Malaria DEPLETES iron stores. The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver.

The body HAS NO WAY to excrete iron ..once it gets past the gut. The body simply will not allow it to be excreted. The body has specialized proteins which do nothing BUT recycle the iron in the body. The body controls the iron it has in it by absorption ..and downregulates the iron it absorbs when a set limit is met/hit. It simply absorbs ‘less of a percentage’ of the iron from your food. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron? India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA. The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate. If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World. Genetics? Lack of reporting? How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record. Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option.

Again .. unreported .. cannot even be considered in this light BECAUSE that is the ONLY way one can actually ‘argue’ scientifically .. but as you have seen the statistics .. twice as much in the Western World would have to have ALOT of unreported deaths to account for THAT much of a discrepency. I wonder what the incidence of cleft palate is NOW .. since iron fortification has been HALTED in the Scandanavians? Who lovesya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? A simple way? No. For starters, "the Third World" is spread all over the planet, and each area has distinct nutritional problems. I ‘think’ what it would take is ‘if’ it exists .. to check the studies which have looked into the incidence of cleft palate .. and WHERE they are MOSTLY .. ‘generally’.

You need the nutritional status of the mothers of these babies, not just a raw incidence rate, if you are to make a correlation. Then go to the WHO and find out where they have been supplementing iron / or adding fortified iron foods?

How do you know which parts of the population are getting the iron fortified foods? It isn’t evenly distributed across the countries. Then see if there IS somewhat of a correlation.

But is it appearing in the babies whose mothers ATE the fortified foods, or those that DIDN’T EAT the fortified foods? Pretty much how they found out that where they supplemented iron overseas .. they now have malaria which is ‘endemic’ .. long lasting and will not go away.

That’s UNRELATED to supplementation, and VERY RELATED to malaria getting resistant to the drugs used to treat it, AND changes in agriculture. Planting RICE fields is very good for malaria, as is clearing forests and building cities. Anopheles LOVES cities. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron?

India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA. The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate. If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake. Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate. It’s a partly genetic, partly environmental, partly nutritional thing. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

Response:

Pretty much how they found out that where they supplemented iron overseas .. they now have malaria which is ‘endemic’ .. long lasting and will not go away. That’s UNRELATED to supplementation, and VERY RELATED to malaria getting resistant to the drugs used to treat it, AND changes in agriculture. Planting RICE fields is very good for malaria, as is clearing forests and building cities. Anopheles LOVES cities.

Well .. it seems the researchers .. looked at the areas supplemented .. and DID find the malaria became endemic in those areas. So since malaria ‘feeds’ on iron .. and those with higher iron stores cannot kick the malaria .. but those with less iron stores CAN? And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them? I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and

the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron? India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA. The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate. If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron.

I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World. So since they have an incidence of *genetic* iron excess AND meat eating their incidence of cleft palate being related to iron IS consistent with my theory. FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake. Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate.

Hmmm .. how would they know this? Vitamin A excess in a dog? Studies? Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

TSU excellent response ….very factual,,easy to understand thanks bob

Response:

Malria has been endemic in Africa nd the South SEas for centuries if not eons. Also, malaria does NOT "feed" on iron … it consumes the protein contents of the cell, leaving the iron behind. Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity. The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind. So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic. It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia. Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria. Medicine is full of this kind of choice. And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them?

That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen. Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’.

Malaria DEPLETES iron stores. The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron? India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA. The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate. If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World.

Genetics? Lack of reporting? How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record. Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option. So since they have an incidence of *genetic* iron excess AND meat eating their incidence of cleft palate being related to iron IS consistent with my theory. FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake. Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate. Hmmm .. how would they know this? Vitamin A excess in a dog? Studies?

Yes … done in beagles years ago. Over-supplementing pets is causing problems. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

Response:

I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate. There is no verifying a point that doesn’t exist.

And you base this .. on ..? A study somewhere? Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

I ‘think’ what it would take is ‘if’ it exists .. to check the studies which have looked into the incidence of cleft palate .. and WHERE they are MOSTLY .. ‘generally’. Then go to the WHO and find out where they have been supplementing iron / or adding fortified iron foods? Then see if there IS somewhat of a correlation. Pretty much how they found out that where they supplemented iron overseas .. they now have malaria which is ‘endemic’ .. long lasting and will not go away. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron? Who loves ya. Tom First you have to find out the incidence of cleft

palate in newborns – difficult in itself because a major characteristic of a "Third world" region is the lack of good medical systems. Then you have to analyse the diet for each region and find the daily iron intake – keeping in mind that some aeras place pregnant women on a diferent diet than the usual population – it may be a better diet, or a worse diet than usual. Then you can start looking for correlations. This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

– Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

There is no verifying a point that doesn’t exist. Michele

Response:

I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World?

A simple way? No. For starters, "the Third World" is spread all over the planet, and each area has distinct nutritional problems. First you have to find out the incidence of cleft palate in newborns – difficult in itself because a major characteristic of a "Third world" region is the lack of good medical systems. Then you have to analyse the diet for each region and find the daily iron intake – keeping in mind that some aeras place pregnant women on a diferent diet than the usual population – it may be a better diet, or a worse diet than usual. Then you can start looking for correlations. This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate.

Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

Response:

I don’t know about the Third World, but there might be something about this in: Heinonen OP et al.: Birth Defects and Drugs in Pregnancy. Littleton: Publishing Sciences Group, Inc. 1977. This book summarizes and reports the results from the Collaborative Perinatal Project, a massive study (50,000 women) that looked for undiscovered teratogens (birth- defect producing) agents. And they found them, too. I don’t remember if they looked at any nutritional supplements, but they looked at lots of stuff you can get without a prescription. IIRC, women who used products containing boric acid (widely used as an antiseptic) had double the rate of birth defects in their babies. This is especially alarming because boric acid isn’t a particularly good antiseptic — it’s about as toxic to human cells as to pathogens. It was brought into antiseptic use because a prominent 19th century bacteriologist thought it was good for that purpose.

Response:

I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

Life expectancy of medical practitioners vs general population

admin — Thu, 08 Nov 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

God forbid you should do your own research, eh, Max? But I’m in a compassionate mood today, so: Frank, Biola, and Burnett: Mortality Rates and Causes Among U.S. Physicians. Am J. Prev Med 2000 Oct; 19(3):155-159. Average physician (white) dies at age 73. I’ll be glad to accept your apology any time. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." http://www.stats.gov.nt.ca/Statinfo/Demographics/Vital_Revised/revise… .html Life Expectancy From Birth, by Gender & Ethnicity Northwest Territories. 1982 – ‘97 Males Females Overall (Years) (Years) (Years) 1997 74.7 79.3 76.8 Aboriginal 72.0 76.7 74.3 Non-Aboriginal 76.6 81.5 78.7 Therefore they live shorter lives than the general population – Doctors 73, general population 77. Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca —

Response:

Obviously, for somebody to become a physician and do their 6 years of study means that 24 years of age there would be 100% alive in order to qualify. With the general population having average death 77 years of age, a percentage would already have died before reaching 24 years of age. This could account for perhaps 5-10% of the population and would need to be calculated into the figures. If those who died before 24 years of age were taken out, the average life expectancy for the general population could increase to 80 years or more. What factors would account for doctors living shorter lives than the genral population? Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca

http://www.stats.gov.nt.ca/Statinfo/Demographics/Vital_Revised/revise… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – .html Life Expectancy From Birth, by Gender & Ethnicity Northwest Territories. 1982 – ‘97 Males Females Overall (Years) (Years) (Years) 1997 74.7 79.3 76.8 Aboriginal 72.0 76.7 74.3 Non-Aboriginal 76.6 81.5 78.7 Therefore they live shorter lives than the general population – Doctors 73, general population 77. Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca —

Response:

Frank, Biola, and Burnett: Mortality Rates and Causes Among U.S. Physicians. Am J. Prev Med 2000 Oct; 19(3):155-159. Average physician (white) dies at age 73. What factors would account for doctors living shorter lives than the genral population?

It’s a high-stress job and they work far longer hours than the average. Tsu Dho Nimh A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

Response:

Acupuncture questions for Andrew

admin — Fri, 05 May 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

The insertion of the needle.

The needle is inserted and it causes sensations in other parts of the body– why? What is the connection and how does it do it? You know, by being this non specific, acupuncture DOES sound like therapeutic touch. You know, the sensations from therapeutic touch are "caused" by the hand passing over the body. If your explanation can go no further than that, then I can see why some people *would* think of acupuncture as therapeutic touch. BL

Response:

Thameturgy is by definition supernatural. It claims that the individuals powers are manifest by a SPECIAL relationship with a deity.

Not sure what you mean. Most therapeutic touch practiitioners that I know of feel that everyone has the same power, it is just more highly developed or practiced in some people. I don’t think they believe they have a special relationship with the deity– just that their art is more practiced. As far as I know, there are probably some agnostics that do therapeutic touch. Some may feel they have a special "gift," in the same sense that a child prodigy musician has a "gift." The point is that one can be interested in most anything to the point of it taking over the spirit– it can be allopathic medicine, it can be politics, it can be acupuncture, etc. BL

Response:

Do you remember that I told you meridians are artificial constructs and that the underlying physiological pathways are what they INTEND to map?

Yes, but you said there was a correspondence. As a matter of fact, I dared to say that the meridians are just a didactic construct and not a physical reality in and of themselves.

Yes, and that didn’t make sense to me given that you said that the meridians were corresponding to the physiolgical pathways. I even said that the meridians may go places not on the physiological pathway and that the physiological pathways extend beyond the artificial boundaries of the meridians.

OK, then answer this. You say that stimulating an acupuncture point can cause a gland to excrete more hormone. You said that the messages were along a physiological pathway. OK. But, if as you say, the meridian and the physiological pathway are not the same in this case, then if a point is stimulated according to meridian and the physiological pathway is not the same, how does the gland "know" to excrete more hormone??? By what method? Has knowledge of physiological pathways changed the acupuncture points that have been traditionally used? Why even use the meridians at all???? Is it because it "works"?? BL

Response:

Glad to help. I’m glad you now realize there are methodological differences between acupuncture and allopathy.

Yes, and it explains why you won’t quote studies. However it also means that acupuncture is not science based. So why do you make such a fuss about scientific literacy. The two seem incompatible. Unless it is to prevent criticism and become accepted as primary care providers. Seems a touch hypocritical to me. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

Just a quick comment then I’m gone. At 69 I’m not in the mood to enter all these argument exchanges. Such a waste of energy (Qui) TCM that we know it was put together by the Chinese government. Other countries have also added their influence to the practice of acupuncture. My involvement: I’be been getting AP for some time now from a licensed physician with about 20 years experience. His father studied it in Europe. As a newspaper reporter I did articles back in the 1970s both for the paper and to free lance. Attended some of the IVAS training sessions at U.C.(International Veterinarian Acoupncture Society. Now why can’t you guys go your own way and stop the bickering. I’m beginning to believe you enjoy it. Joy Peace from an aging member of the human race. Joy They tookTCM from a simple folk medicine into an organized, scientific study of human health & therapeutics. I wonder how many debunkers they had to bypass to get this done? How many years did it take? Jan

Before you buy.

Response:

an, You can only debunk that which is composed of bunk.

Really? You mean like Bar…rat does acupuncture and TCM? Thus, you understand Hulda’s fear of research and investigation.

Gettin tired of bein wrong…..yet? Jan

Response:

Just a quick comment then I’m gone. At 69 I’m not in the mood to enter all these argument exchanges. Such a waste of energy (Qui)

Hey Cool. A qi believer!!!! As a newspaper reporter I did articles back in the 1970s both for the paper and to free lance. Attended some of the IVAS training sessions at U.C.(International Veterinarian Acoupncture Society.

You must know a lot about it. You could add to the discussion here. Are meridians "didactic" or are they "real"? Now why can’t you guys go your own way and stop the bickering. I’m beginning to believe you enjoy it.

I’m just trying to figure out exactly how it works. If a meridian isn’t necessarily on a physiological pathway, yet a point on a meridian causes a gland far away to produce more or less hormone, how does the signal go from one place to another? I’d also like to know what happens along a meridian, or, alternatively, along a physiological pathway. I’d also like to know what causes the tingly feeling acupuncture gives me, far away from the needle. Andrew, an acupuncturist, says this has nothing to do with qi. But how does the needle cause this feeling? Do you have any ideas? Thanks. BL

Response:

They tookTCM from a simple folk medicine into an organized, scientific study of human health & therapeutics.

I wonder how many debunkers they had to bypass to get this done? How many years did it take? Jan

Response:

The highly semantic nature of studying TCM is part of the classification and structure of TCM that was contributed by the Confucians. They took TCM from a simple folk medicine into an organized, scientific study of human health & therapeutics. Being very discerning in your observations & terms is essential, not mere ritual.

And they did it without double blind studies, working the way many alt practitioners do today. Double blind studies do not require modern practitioners to be very discerning in their observations & terms, they just need to apply the ritual and the results pop out. Discernment is still needed to interpret the results properly, and that is still in short supply. Thanks for that Andrew, I hadn’t thought of it that way before. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

True, but allopathic medicine is based on a bio-medical model. While many fancy themselves as extraordinary, few are really into believing they have supernatural powers.

And Andrew, YOU define what is natural and what is supernatural? So, acupuncture is "natural" and therapeutic touch is "supernatural"??? Usually these terms are derived culturally. Our culture fifty years ago would have defined acupuncture as "supernatural." Personally, I don’t dichotomize things on the natural-supernatural continuum. The organizing principles I use are effective, ineffective– proven, unproven– harmless, risky– explainable, unexplained– fraudulent, sincere(these going to the motive of the practitioner). Furthermore, there is a continuum in each of these, shades of gray so to speak. So a tradition physician can sometimes recommend a cancer therapy or an operation that is ineffective, unproven, risky, explainable and sincere. I have a problem with that. I would rather have someone recommend NAET, which is effective, unproven, safe, unexplainable and sincere. BL

Response:

No, Qi is a qualitative description of a function or process. The sensation is not the Qi.

What is the sensation caused by? BL

Response:

Thanks Karuna– From NCCAM site: Western scientists have found meridians hard to identify because meridians do not directly correspond to nerve or blood circulation pathways.

Interesting. As I recall, Andrew said the meridians did correspond. Oh, well. Acupuncture points are believed to stimulate the central nervous system (the brain and spinal cord) to release chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord, and brain.

Yes, but even that has a mechanism, right? Otherwise it sounds hocus pocus. According to Andrew this is done on a physiological pathway. Yet, according to what you quoted the physiolical pathways do not correspond to the meridians, yet the points stimulated are on the meridians. So acupuncture is starting to sound more and more "supernatural" (as Andrew classifies things). These chemicals either change the experience of pain or release other chemicals, such as hormones, that influence the body’s self-regulating systems. The biochemical changes may stimulate the body’s natural healing abilities and promote physical and emotional well-being. There are three main mechanisms:

Yes, I understand. But there has to be a connection between the point and the gland and some type of communication. I’m trying to find the form of communication and the direction, etc. between the needle and the gland. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Conduction of electromagnetic signals: Western scientists have found evidence that acupuncture points an strategic conductors of electromagnetic signals. Stimulating points along these pathways through acupuncture enables electromagnetic signals to be relayed at it greater rate than under normal conditions These signals may start the flow of pain-killing biochemicals such as endorphins and of immune system cells to specific sites in the that are injured or vulnerable to disease. Activation of opioid systems: research has found that several types of opioids may be released into the central nervous system during acupuncture treatment, thereby reducing pain Changes in brain chemistry sensation, and Involuntary body functions: studies have shown that acupuncture may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones in a good way. Acupuncture also has been documented to affect the parts of the central nervous system related to sensation and involuntary body functions, such as immune reactions and processes whereby a person’s blood pressure, blood flow, and body temperature are regulated.

This is a description of WHAT acupuncture does. I want to know WHY it does it. See the difference? BL

Response:

True, but allopathic medicine is based on a bio-medical model. While many fancy themselves as extraordinary, few are really into believing they have supernatural powers. And Andrew, YOU define what is natural and what is supernatural? So, acupuncture is "natural" and therapeutic touch is "supernatural"??? Usually these terms are derived culturally. Our culture fifty years ago would have defined acupuncture as "supernatural."

dont even have to go that far back…i believe the AMA was denouncing acupuncture as blatant quackery in the mid seventies. andrew has tried so very hard to set himself apart from those who believe in a treatment method without scientific proof of its efficiacy. it’s just a tough spot to be in when one happens to be learning TCM / acupuncture. i find it so very curious how someone with his professed abhorrence of unproven (by western standards of proof) treatments got into acupuncture in the first place. part of my whole confusion over kali and andrew has been their persistent denouncements and sarcastic derisions of anything and everything else while maintaining their stiff upper lip over acupuncture. oh, sure, they denounce Qi, but without Qi, what is left? well, no one rightly knows, do they? so Qi seems like as good an explanation as any til science can come up with something else—-which it STILL hasnt managed to do even after 20 years. an interesting thing that i have noticed here at mha, those who are frequently the most vocal with their alt-lifestyle derision are folks who (by their own admission) spent a good part of their time–years, even—pursuing various alt treatments. yet these are supposedly hard core scientific types!!! (AF, kali, andy…and whoever else has tried their share of ‘bogus’ treatments and has since become an all-out sci-med.) this tells me that anyone like this has come to the worshipping of the science gods late in life and that they were, at one point or another, just EXACTLY like the people they are regularly ridiculing. just another reason that i find that form of communication completely ineffective. Personally, I don’t dichotomize things on the natural-supernatural continuum. The organizing principles I use are effective, ineffective– proven, unproven– harmless, risky– explainable, unexplained– fraudulent, sincere(these going to the motive of the practitioner). Furthermore, there is a continuum in each of these, shades of gray so to speak.

excellent. now, if we could only get andy to simply admit to the acupuncture / unproven-unexplained part (not saying ineffective, fraudulent, risky) simply unproven. and that in spite of his disdain for those who have little working knowledge of modern science, he is no different than they are when it comes to his very own beloved acupuncture. Remove one ‘m’ from mpinet to use your reply option….. Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog. — Dorothy Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

Response:

I wish I could give you a brief & concise answer to those questions. However, the background information & terms alone would take quite a while to get through. Frankly, these are issues that most acupuncture students are never really clear on. A very nice and honest post Andrew.

Yes, I agree. And it is not only acupuncture students that are not clear, it is the rest of the world too. It is acupuncture teachers, and the scientific community as well. Hmmmm– NAET isn’t well understood either. Funny how it doesn’t take well understood modalities to produce good clinical results. BL

Response:

Physiological Pathway: The physical structures that lie on or underneath the meridian. These include nerves, connective tissue, skin, bone, etc. The actual physiological pathway’s boundaries are those of the anatomical structures contained therein Meridian: The theoretical pathway that connects a particular set of acupuncture points corresponding with a particular Functional Unit, commonly named after an organ.

Andrew– it really just sounds like you are making semantic distinctions, and that a meridian, for all practical purposes, is the physiological pathway. I realize that the meridians were developed by trial and error and mapping or whatever over thousands of years, but then the physiological pathways were confirmed by more modern science to be in the same place as the didactic meridian theory. JMHO but it sounds like just a westernization of the TCM jargon to make it more palatable or something. I find this to be rather presumptuous. Not by you in particular, but whoever introduced you to these distinctions that seem only semantic. Now, as far as qi goes, what is the modernization of that term– firing of neurons or something? Now that I realize that the physiological pathway is akin to the meridian, what is the western term for qi? How does the message flow along the "physiological pathway"? BL

Response:

BL, NAET has no demonstrated efficacy, TCM does.

But results matter to you, right? Not the theory behind it? After all, as you stated, TCM theory is little understood. Yet efficacy is demonstrated. NAET has had no published studies, and acupuncture has. But therapeutic touch and magnets, for instance, do have studies demonstrating efficacy. Both are little understood as theories. You may object because you say the studies are not definitive, but you are not objecting that that the theory behind them is little understood? After all, acupuncture is in the same place theoretically speaking. BL

Response:

This is why I take such a hard line against arm-chair physicians and new-age types. Their approach is always based upon building up their belief system as opposed to the best interests of the patient. I believe this is the single biggest reason there is SO little clarity on this. To accept it would cost a lot of insecure people one of their belief system’s central pillars.

One could make the same argument about allopathic physicians, that they can make their profession their religion, so to speak. The hospitals are the temples, and the double blind studies and blood tests are the rituals, the medications are the sacriments, and, of course, the MDs are the priests. Not saying that all have this attitude of course. A clear understanding of terms and diction is critical in understanding any science, especially so when the terms can have many connotations to choose from.

So we rename terms to suit our fancy after we adapt a medical treatment that has been tried in another culture for thousands of years? This, Andrew, is a very ethnocentric attitude. BL

Response:

Part of this sensation is purely contact, some portion is electric as the needle has a different conductivity than the body itself. So, the sensation travels from the nerves to the brain just like other physical stimuli.

Does this "electric" feeling affect qi? How? Is that the part that is not clearly understood? BL

Response:

Now, as far as qi goes, what is the modernization of that term– firing of neurons or something? Now that I realize that the physiological pathway is akin to the meridian, what is the western term for qi? How does the message flow along the "physiological pathway"? BL

BL, there are five, not one, forms of qi in TCM. Here is one explanation: The Forms of Qi (Vital Energy) in Acupuncture By Ralph Alan Dale This is a condensed version of the article from the American Journal of Acupuncture Vol. 22, #3, 1994. The concept of Qi (sometimes spelled "Chi", pronounced "chee"), or vital energy, is fundamental to traditional Chinese medical thought. There is nothing comparable in allopathic (conventional Western) medicine. While human physiology in allopathic medicine is organized according to specialized function, Chinese medicine is more concerned with dynamics of interrelationships, especially the patterns of vital energy. Traditional Chinese medicine defines the five main forms of Qi Energy

Gurson Treatment

admin — Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I would be grateful for any info or experiences regarding the use of the Gurson Cancer Treatment.

Response:

I would be grateful for any info or experiences regarding the use of the Gurson Cancer Treatment.

In case you have had trouble finding information by a Web search, the spelling is "Gerson". Here are some URLs that have been posted on the Net. Diet Therapy—Max Gerson. Gerson Diet http://www.gerson.com/history.html http://www.1999.com/gerson/ http://www.gerson.com/cnb104.html Gerson Institute http://www.gerson.org/index.html http://gerson.org/booklist.html#acancertherapy http://gerson.org/maxbio.html http://gerson.org/booklist.html#acancertherapy Gerson therapy is also given a chapter in the following book: Ross Pelton, R.Ph., Ph.D., and Lee Overholser, Ph.D., "Alternatives in Cancer Therapy", NY: Fireside/Simon&Schuster, 1994. ISBN 0-671-79623-2. The dietary therapy described by Anne Frahm in her "A Cancer Battle Plan", ISBN 0-89109-690-6, is basically Gerson’s approach, although the Gerson Institute today I believe also uses thyroid hormone to stimulate the patient’s metabolism, whereas the only such measure mentioned in Ms Frahm’s book as I recall is a recommendation of exercise (which would have the effect of increasing blood oxygenation). Hope this helps you get started. -John S., Wellesley Hills, MA USA

Response:

deleterious effects of radiation for cancer

admin — Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Anyone know where I can find information on the deleterious effects of radiation as a cancer therapy? —

Response:

Don’t know answer to your question, but if you find out, please post it. Thank you Lady8

Response:

Jimmy Keller story

admin — Fri, 05 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Jimmy Keller story Forbidden Medicine by Ellen Brown ISBN1879854287 Great book on how they stopped an alt cancer therapy practitioner from working–in Mexico! Cross border raid etc Use of L-Arginine.

Response:

Article & L-Arginine articles http://www.whale.to/Cancer/keller.html I wake every morning rejoicing that we have the FDA/FBI to protect us from cheap non-toxic alternatives. John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jimmy Keller story Forbidden Medicine by Ellen Brown ISBN1879854287 Great book on how they stopped an alt cancer therapy practitioner from working–in Mexico! Cross border raid etc Use of L-Arginine.

Response:

Need info from those taking Tegratol

admin — Tue, 25 May 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Been on teg for about 3 yrs. except for some of my hair falling out and growing back finer and wavy no probs at all. ’til then Jon

Response:

I originally started on lithium for 5 years and the side effects were horrible. I have been on tegretol for 4 years and have found it to be so much better. The side effects I felt in the beginning was mainly sleepiness which has now worn off but every now and then my bones or muscles ache. I just take motrin for that minor side effect. I haven’t been hypomanic that much since only when I have had medication changes but I am totally happy with tegretol. Good luck to you my friend, everything will be okay all you have to do is ride the small wave of side effects for a short time. Shadow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someone in our family had 2 manic episodes 9 years ago & had another one from Jan. thru May; her doctor has prescribed Tegratol. We are interested in beginning use of/continued use of/effectiveness of/side effects of, etc. Is this to be considered a possible long term medication with few side effects, or after a while does it lose its effectiveness? We are very concerned & would like to learn from other’s experiences. —Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

Someone in our family had 2 manic episodes 9 years ago & had another one from Jan. thru May; her doctor has prescribed Tegratol. We are interested in beginning use of/continued use of/effectiveness of/side effects of, etc. Is this to be considered a possible long term medication with few side effects, or after a while does it lose its effectiveness? We are very concerned & would like to learn from other’s experiences.

Lithium was very effective (do we have any editors or eng. majors: I hate making this mistake–effective or affective? Well, that was certainly off topic); until I had neurotoxic problems at therapeutic levels. Then, tegretol, don’t remember that as particularly helpful, but it was years ago thrilled. Mostly, I remember the first week as filled with incredible nausea ( to the point of vomiting) but very quick relief from mania and inability to sleep. Easy trade-off. Within a few months, hair fell out (not in clumps, like cancer therapy–just big increased rate of loss, at the root). That was a jolt to my self esteem. But, I was able to realize—"Hey, dickhead. Your self-esteem should have suffered way more (and in advance of) by behavior prior to mood stabilizer drug); and it did. My hair leaves me and then returns, but always thinner, dryer and (good news) with little waves. I have read lots and truly believe in the potential benefits of zinc and selenium. I am just too damn impatient and forgetful, to remember to do it. If you can, I strongly advise, try it. Plus, not everyone loses hair. My sanity, such as it is, is worth bad hair and weight gain but, if you can start and keep with it early (just in case), immediately increase your activity level and try reasonable amount (no excess) of zinc and selenium. My best and good luck from, julie

Response:

Hi 8 yrs on tegretol without a manic episode. I think tegretol has been around before lithium, though used for sezure control. The list of side effects will make your hair stand up, at first. I was very sleepy the first month. No other major side effects. Good luck, Deb

Response:

For me it was effective for a few months with very few side effects, then wore off. jackie Web page at http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/close/xhq10/mem.htm I’ve been Jay H, Canarybird, Empty Cage, Serin, Phoenix, even Crow. Let’s see if I can stick with this one for a while.

Response:

hello! Someone in our family had 2 manic episodes 9 years ago & had another one from Jan. thru May; her doctor has prescribed Tegratol. We are interested in beginning use of/continued use of/effectiveness of/side effects of, etc. Is this to be considered a possible long term medication with few side effects, or after a while does it lose its effectiveness? We are very concerned & would like to learn from other’s experiences.

I am happy that i have been successful with Tegretol so far.. i will tell you this.. the first three weeks are hell because of the major side effects – sleepiness, headache, dry mouth , ringing in ears, feeling ’stupid’… a great place to go to see the side effects is at www.mentalhealth.com where it has a large drug library… i’ll happily stay on Tegretol and live with the headaches and water retention.. stability is worth it good luck! – liz

Response:

I have taken tegretol for 4 years. It has done wonders for me. I have not had a mainc episode since taking it. (Except last year I had one but I was off my meds) The only major side effect I have found is sleepiness… that first month or so is h-e-l-l! But when her pdoc gets her dosage at a therpeutic level she will function just fine .at least that has been my experience…but it is different for everyone as you well know…and as with many of the drugs for bp you have to have blood levels checked every so often. Not tht it eliminates ALL mood swings … it really does help moderate them so they are much easier to manage! Anyway I wish her luck!