Talk Cancer

Question:

Among whites = 1/700 Among African Americans = 1/1100 (Less than that of India’s stats) Asian Americans = 1/2500 (*Far* less than that of India’s stats) This seems to be far different from what I have for ’stats’ ..

Well a full search seems to throw your stats for a loop .. Asians americans have the highest .. then caucasions .. then Black americans. The Native Indians have the HIGHEST rates .. and since they ALSO have a ten to one higher incidence of diabetes .. it fits VERY nicely into my theory of iron being involved .. BECAUSE the iron is KNOWN to be ‘closely involved’ in diabetes.    http://ads.intelihealth.com/html.ng/Params.richmedia=yes&adType=vertad    HW|~st,333|~r,WSIHW000|~b,*|    Health News    .    .    Gene Associated With Cleft Lip And Palate    By Nancy Volkers    InteliHealth News Service    director of the Human Medical Genetics Program at the University of    Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver. According to the March of    Dimes, cleft lip and palate occurs in about one of every 1,000 white    infants, about one of every 2,500 African-American infants, and about    one in every 600 Asian-American infants. BIRTH DEFECT RISK FACTOR SERIES: ORAL CLEFTS    There are racial/ethnic differences in risk for oral clefts. Asians    have the highest risk (14:10,000 births), followed by whites    (10:10,000 births) and African-Americans (4:10,000 births) (Das,    1995). Among Asians, the risk for oral clefts is higher among Far East    Asians (Japanese, Chinese, Korean) and Filipinos than Pacific    Islanders (Yoon, 1997). Type in "cleft palate statistics" — LOTS of sites will appear. Some present state generated stats, some for particular countries, some from cleft palate support groups, etc., etc.  Some sites claim no racial/ethnic differences in the rates of the incidence of CP while others (including the one where I found the above information) obviously do.  The various sites seem to agree that CP affects males more than females & that in approximately 70% of the cases of CP also involve a cleft lip as well.

But interestingly .. I have YET to find one which generates the Asians of having such a low incidence of cleft .. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Who loves ya. Tom I beg to differ on that last statement. Man, humans, homo sapiens, in NOT a "natural" eater of grains. Our jaws do not move sideways to grind grain like the herbivore.  We do not have a crop with rocks in it to grind the grains like the birds.  We do not have the enzymes to break down the cellulose sacks which contain the carbohydrate.  Man must always process the grains in order to benefit from their nutrient content. Man, therefore, does not have the biochemical means to detoxify the phytic acid in grains.  This explains the pharmacologic properties of this compound as it applies to man.  The purpose of the phytic acid is to protect the grain, not to nourish man nor to make a supplement. The phytic acid is not a nutrient for humans.  It is detriment, a toxic chemical compound which is a part of the chemical makeup of the grains.  This is why the hygienists have always recommended soaking the grains to remove this water soluble, toxic component before grinding and baking the grains to make bread or grain products. Cee.

That is why phytic acid has such a profound effect on cancer .. it is BAD for us? Since it is found in EVERY cell of the human body .. this is BECAUSE we eat grains .. as ‘non eaters of grain’ ..? The cell has ‘evoluted’ to include this in the cell .. EVERY cell of the body? Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

    And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby     syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in     the malaria so hard it kill them?  That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen.  

Have you found some unsuccessful replications, TDN? The researchers are said to be looking for funding for animal studies as the next step. Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are.

Don’t dismiss the data because a hypothetical mechanism is faulty. The fields used are well within recommended ’safe’ limits and the treatment is inexpensive.   If validated it could be a very useful therapy. Professor Lai believes this technique may have applications in cancer therapy as well Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf  It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity. Well like I said.. researchers HAVE looked and HAVE seen a correlation.

  READ the article – some studies show a faint correlation, others did not, some shoed a negative correlation, but it’s not clear that there is a cause and effect behind it.  It’s at the "deserves further investigation" stage, but dropping iron supplementation would kill more children than malaria does.   The reports of increased parasite incidence are suspect: having enough of a medical system to do supplementation also means having enough of a medical system to diagnose parasites.  I haven’t found any baseline studies that compare pre- and post- in the same populations.   The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind.   So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic.  It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia. So what you’re saying is .. the ‘figures’ are ’skewed’ in that since more people are SURVIVING .. then there are MORE people who HAVE NOT DIED and thusly when looking at the figures .. there are more people ALIVE .. BUT ..they .. STILL .. ‘have’.. malaria .. SO .. it ‘looks’ like malaria has BECOME endemic.. BECAUSE the high rate of people who are still alive .. have malaria?

Would you rather be DEAD of iron deficiency anemia or ALIVE with malaria?  The definition of "endemic" is "always present in an population", and malaria is and has been in African populations for eons. And the REASON they are still alive .. is BECAUSE of iron supplementation? Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria.  Medicine is full of this kind of choice. And this is based on .. studies of WELL FED .. non starving .. non malnourished .. populations?

  No … if you read the PDF I referred you to, it was sub-Saharan Africa for the most part, with some New Guinea studies.  None of them are what I would call well-fed. Look at the map of endemic malaria areas! And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them?   That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen.  Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are. Well another ‘theory’ of yours shot to hell by actual research.

  Cites please?  I’ve never seen anything beyond the initial reports from the original researcher. And the fact you say the researchers are skewing / doctoring their findings .. leads one to believe you are willing to ‘pull anything’out of your hat to bolster your stance .. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Malaria DEPLETES iron stores.  The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver.

  My goof … the iron-based malarial pigment, hemezoin, is not recycled (or is recycled poorly … my parasitology classes focused on practical things like KILLING mosquitos), and is "sequestered" by macrophages, usually in the liver.  The net result is that the body is having to replace RBC and hemeglobin at a fast rate and the parasites are removing the iron from the loop (permanently? temporarily? … at least for longer than the body planned on). The body controls the iron it has in it by absorption ..and downregulates the iron it absorbs when a set limit is met/hit. It simply absorbs ‘less of a percentage’ of the iron from your food.

  So … iron supplementation should not cause an overload problem.  If the body has enough, it just doesn’t absorb any.  A problem we encountered with malaria (yes, Phoenix does get malaria cases, usually imported from tropical coastal Mexico) is that the transfusions used to treat severe cases MIGHT cause iron overload.  But malaria itself is just inserting itself into the existing RBCs and can’t cause iron overload because it doesn’t have any way to import any. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron?   India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA.  The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate.  If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World.   Genetics?  Lack of reporting?  How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record.  Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option. Again .. unreported .. cannot even be considered  in this light BECAUSE that is the ONLY way one can actually ‘argue’ scientifically .. but as you have seen the statistics .. twice as much in the Western World would have to have ALOT of unreported deaths to account for THAT much of a discrepency.

  How many autopsies do you think are done on infants in India? How many of their babies are born in huts with (if the wonan is lucky) only a village midwife.  Death is reported as "died", and no one says anything about cause of death. I wonder what the incidence of cleft palate is NOW .. since iron fortification has been HALTED in the Scandanavians?

Well … you could always ask! Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The phytic acid is not a nutrient for humans.  It is detriment, a toxic chemical compound which is a part of the chemical makeup of the grains. This is why the hygienists have always recommended soaking the grains to remove this water soluble, toxic component before grinding and baking the grains to make bread or grain products. Cee. That is why phytic acid has such a profound effect on cancer .. it is BAD for us?

Hi Tom, In my grad school days studying and researching cancer, none of the profs could explain why chemo worked.  Why was the poison metabolized and transported to cancer sites? Consider that everything that enters the interior domain of the body is either a nutrient, neutral, or toxic in action.  Chemo is certainly toxic. Consider that cancerous tumors may represent a toxic waste storage site for the body.  This may well explain why these deadly poisons effect tumors more so than normal healthy  cells.  The drugs are transported to these sites as a means of body defense to protect normal healthy cells. Phytic acid is a toxic chemical utilized by the seeds for self protection.  The body, recognizing the toxic properties, shunt the poison to a site in the body where it will do the least harm to healthy cells while it excretes all that it can. Since it is found in EVERY cell of the human body .. this is BECAUSE we eat grains .. as ‘non eaters of grain’ ..? The cell has ‘evoluted’ to include this in the cell .. EVERY cell of the body?

You lost me on that one. Cee.

Response:

Among whites = 1/700 Among African Americans = 1/1100 (Less than that of India’s stats) Asian Americans = 1/2500 (*Far* less than that of India’s stats) This seems to be far different from what I have for ’stats’ ..

Type in "cleft palate statistics" — LOTS of sites will appear.   Some present state generated stats, some for particular countries, some from cleft palate support groups, etc., etc.  Some sites claim no racial/ethnic differences in the rates of the incidence of CP while others (including the one where I found the above information) obviously do.  The various sites seem to agree that CP affects males more than females & that in approximately 70% of the cases of CP also involve a cleft lip as well. So this thread is obviously ‘targeted for termination’ ..

Okay. Have a nice day ..

You too. Michele

Response:

Among whites = 1/700 Among African Americans = 1/1100 (Less than that of India’s stats) Asian Americans = 1/2500 (*Far* less than that of India’s stats)

This seems to be far different from what I have for ’stats’ .. So this thread is obviously ‘targeted for termination’ .. Have a nice day .. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Who loves ya. Tom

I beg to differ on that last statement. Man, humans, homo sapiens, in NOT a "natural" eater of grains. Our jaws do not move sideways to grind grain like the herbivore.  We do not have a crop with rocks in it to grind the grains like the birds.  We do not have the enzymes to break down the cellulose sacks which contain the carbohydrate.  Man must always process the grains in order to benefit from their nutrient content. Man, therefore, does not have the biochemical means to detoxify the phytic acid in grains.  This explains the pharmacologic properties of this compound as it applies to man.  The purpose of the phytic acid is to protect the grain, not to nourish man nor to make a supplement. The phytic acid is not a nutrient for humans.  It is detriment, a toxic chemical compound which is a part of the chemical makeup of the grains.  This is why the hygienists have always recommended soaking the grains to remove this water soluble, toxic component before grinding and baking the grains to make bread or grain products. Cee.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another statement .. based on? The facts posted.  Choose to ignore them, but that doesn’t change ‘em. And your statements are based on…..? I point to the fact there IS a higher rate of cleft plate in the ‘nourished’ world and you simply .. state .. the ‘contrary’? There is NOT a higher rate of cleft palate amongst those in developed nations.  Pray tell, Tom, where do YOU get your "facts"? I posted the statistics .. and they show India to have the lowest rates .. and UNLESS you consider a nation of ‘anemic’ people to BE the ‘nourished’ ones .. then you obviously don’t understand the meaning of ’statistical evidence’ .. Must be nice to not have to at the very least half assed attempt to show HOW you come up with the ’statement’. It is up to the person making the claim to prove it, not up to those who disagree to prove its negative.  You started by asking for ways to prove your latest theory, so I see you can’t.  No need to be upset with those who point out that you can’t. See above .. SAVING you work? That’s a laugh .. when it seems you don’t do any to begin with .. Aaah, Tom, your lack of factual debate is no reason to assume things about other posters in light of the fact that you know as little about me or any other poster here as you do about your iron theories which don’t hold water. Perhaps you have to work more than some of us who are well paid for out time & skill do, I wouldn’t know or care.  Your lack of any proof to back up your ideas is your problem not mine,  & your attempt to avoid that point is plain.  [Perhaps you should put a little more effort into finding that proof or accept that many of your debaters will point that out.] Fred and michelle .. From another list .. Go back there .. They may believe you know what you are talking about .. BECAUSE of their simple lack of facts .. and YOUR espousing how you DO .. but .. we both have just seen in a short simple argument of OBVIOUS statistical evidence .. that you wouldn’t KNOW your //// from a hole in the ground. Actually by what I’ve seen of YOUR  .. ‘debate’ and your constant references to the ‘Mercedes’ in the garage .. leads me to believe you might be more interested in ’stock prices’ and it seems may be well advised to stick with .. them. I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process).  Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Now wait a minute — first iron from meat is the root of all health evils, now you’re addin’ to the list Tom.  Your original position has been iron from meat causes diseases.  Of course you’ve already added a little disclaimer about some vegetarians having some sort of genetic problem with other iron.  Now you’re mixin’ in ideas about polished rice — you’re changing the theory & altering the idea to try to account for all the pieces that don’t fit your theory (& there’s lots of them).  It doesn’t work. It does work .. Just because you can’t see how it does .. doesn’t make it any less so .. There are lots of causes to diseases, there are lots of preventions.  To say that one thing causes all diseases is no more correct than saying 2 or 3 things call all diseases.  Perhaps you’ll finally provide relevant material, studies, or statistics that back up your claim.  I doubt it, but I always look forward to surprises! I doubt .. surprises .. wouldn’t meet you very often .. BECAUSE .. you wouldn’t be able to tell if they ARE a surprise or not .. seeing you can’t / don’t actually understand .. a thing of which you are speaking to ..

The rates of cleft palate in the U.S. are as follows: Among whites = 1/700 Among African Americans = 1/1100 (Less than that of India’s stats) Asian Americans = 1/2500 (*Far* less than that of India’s stats) It is more prevalent among males. If iron from meat was the deciding factor of the prevalence of cleft palate, there would be no differences between races or sexes living in the same country, for the most part eating the same type of diet.  Your explanation? Michele P.S.  Please do show any reference I’ve EVER made to a Mercedes in the garage (don’t like ‘em).  It would of course be another lie of yours. You can’t back up your theories.  C’est tout.  Please do let me know when you figure out what you’re trying to prove.  You don’t have a clue as of yet.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well .. it seems the researchers .. looked at the areas supplemented .. and DID find the malaria became endemic in those areas. So since malaria ‘feeds’ on iron .. and those with higher iron stores cannot kick the malaria .. but those with less iron stores CAN? Malria has been endemic in Africa nd the South SEas for centuries if not eons.  Also, malaria does NOT "feed" on iron … it consumes the protein contents of the cell, leaving the iron behind. Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf  It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity. The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind.  So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic.  It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia. Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria.  Medicine is full of this kind of choice. And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them?   That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen.  Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Malaria DEPLETES iron stores.  The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and  the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron?   India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA.  The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate.  If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World.   Genetics?  Lack of reporting?  How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record.  Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option. So since they have an incidence of *genetic* iron excess AND meat eating their incidence of cleft palate being related to iron IS consistent with my theory.   FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake.  Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate. Hmmm .. how would they know this? Vitamin A excess in a dog? Studies?   Yes … done in beagles years ago.  Over-supplementing pets is causing problems. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data. TSU excellent response ….very factual,,easy to understand thanks bob

Yes, TDN, thanks for saving me the trouble of putting this info together when Tom started the iron/cleft palate connection  (sorry, only meat eaters’ iron/cleft palate connection)  thread.  Everything (from the rate of those born with cleft palate in developing nations to consideration of the diet consumed by the majority of people in those cultures) points to iron supplementation &/or eating meat *not* being a consideration in the occurence of cleft palate. I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process).  Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is Michele

Response:

Another statement .. based on? The facts posted.  Choose to ignore them, but that doesn’t change ‘em.  And your statements are based on…..? I point to the fact there IS a higher rate of cleft plate in the ‘nourished’ world and you simply .. state .. the ‘contrary’? There is NOT a higher rate of cleft palate amongst those in developed nations.  Pray tell, Tom, where do YOU get your "facts"?

I posted the statistics .. and they show India to have the lowest rates .. and UNLESS you consider a nation of ‘anemic’ people to BE the ‘nourished’ ones .. then you obviously don’t understand the meaning of ’statistical evidence’ .. Must be nice to not have to at the very least half assed attempt to show HOW you come up with the ’statement’. It is up to the person making the claim to prove it, not up to those who disagree to prove its negative.  You started by asking for ways to prove your latest theory, so I see you can’t.  No need to be upset with those who point out that you can’t.

See above .. SAVING you work? That’s a laugh .. when it seems you don’t do any to begin with .. Aaah, Tom, your lack of factual debate is no reason to assume things about other posters in light of the fact that you know as little about me or any other poster here as you do about your iron theories which don’t hold water. Perhaps you have to work more than some of us who are well paid for out time & skill do, I wouldn’t know or care.  Your lack of any proof to back up your ideas is your problem not mine,  & your attempt to avoid that point is plain.  [Perhaps you should put a little more effort into finding that proof or accept that many of your debaters will point that out.]

Fred and michelle .. From another list .. Go back there .. They may believe you know what you are talking about .. BECAUSE of their simple lack of facts .. and YOUR espousing how you DO .. but .. we both have just seen in a short simple argument of OBVIOUS statistical evidence .. that you wouldn’t KNOW your //// from a hole in the ground. Actually by what I’ve seen of YOUR  .. ‘debate’ and your constant references to the ‘Mercedes’ in the garage .. leads me to believe you might be more interested in ’stock prices’ and it seems may be well advised to stick with .. them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process).  Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Now wait a minute — first iron from meat is the root of all health evils, now you’re addin’ to the list Tom.  Your original position has been iron from meat causes diseases.  Of course you’ve already added a little disclaimer about some vegetarians having some sort of genetic problem with other iron.  Now you’re mixin’ in ideas about polished rice — you’re changing the theory & altering the idea to try to account for all the pieces that don’t fit your theory (& there’s lots of them).  It doesn’t work.

It does work .. Just because you can’t see how it does .. doesn’t make it any less so .. There are lots of causes to diseases, there are lots of preventions.  To say that one thing causes all diseases is no more correct than saying 2 or 3 things call all diseases.  Perhaps you’ll finally provide relevant material, studies, or statistics that back up your claim.  I doubt it, but I always look forward to surprises!

I doubt .. surprises .. wouldn’t meet you very often .. BECAUSE .. you wouldn’t be able to tell if they ARE a surprise or not .. seeing you can’t / don’t actually understand .. a thing of which you are speaking to .. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

Another statement .. based on?

The facts posted.  Choose to ignore them, but that doesn’t change ‘em.  And your statements are based on…..? I point to the fact there IS a higher rate of cleft plate in the ‘nourished’ world and you simply .. state .. the ‘contrary’?

There is NOT a higher rate of cleft palate amongst those in developed nations.  Pray tell, Tom, where do YOU get your "facts"? Must be nice to not have to at the very least half assed attempt to show HOW you come up with the ’statement’.

It is up to the person making the claim to prove it, not up to those who disagree to prove its negative.  You started by asking for ways to prove your latest theory, so I see you can’t.  No need to be upset with those who point out that you can’t. SAVING you work? That’s a laugh .. when it seems you don’t do any to begin with ..

Aaah, Tom, your lack of factual debate is no reason to assume things about other posters in light of the fact that you know as little about me or any other poster here as you do about your iron theories which don’t hold water. Perhaps you have to work more than some of us who are well paid for out time & skill do, I wouldn’t know or care.  Your lack of any proof to back up your ideas is your problem not mine,  & your attempt to avoid that point is plain.  [Perhaps you should put a little more effort into finding that proof or accept that many of your debaters will point that out.] I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process).  Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron.

Now wait a minute — first iron from meat is the root of all health evils, now you’re addin’ to the list Tom.  Your original position has been iron from meat causes diseases.  Of course you’ve already added a little disclaimer about some vegetarians having some sort of genetic problem with other iron.  Now you’re mixin’ in ideas about polished rice — you’re changing the theory & altering the idea to try to account for all the pieces that don’t fit your theory (& there’s lots of them).  It doesn’t work. There are lots of causes to diseases, there are lots of preventions.  To say that one thing causes all diseases is no more correct than saying 2 or 3 things call all diseases.  Perhaps you’ll finally provide relevant material, studies, or statistics that back up your claim.  I doubt it, but I always look forward to surprises! Michele

Response:

Yes, TDN, thanks for saving me the trouble of putting this info together when Tom started the iron/cleft palate connection  (sorry, only meat eaters’ iron/cleft palate connection)  thread.  Everything (from the rate of those born with cleft palate in developing nations to consideration of the diet consumed by the majority of people in those cultures) points to iron supplementation &/or eating meat *not* being a consideration in the occurence of cleft palate.

Another statement .. based on? I point to the fact there IS a higher rate of cleft plate in the ‘nourished’ world and you simply .. state .. the ‘contrary’? Must be nice to not have to at the very least half assed attempt to show HOW you come up with the ’statement’. SAVING you work? That’s a laugh .. when it seems you don’t do any to begin with .. I’d still like to know why life long vegetarians develop many of the same conditions meat eaters do — even giving Tom the benefit of the doubt & considering his claim that 10% of vegetarians have some sort of genetic problem that messes ‘em up anyway, that would leave 90% of these vegetarians to live to be about 100 (since Tom claims the iron from meat is the culprit in the disease process).  Since this is obviously *not* the case, where is

Who knows? Could be the fact we have decided polished rice to be much better than brown rice .. which is deficient in phytic acid .. which is the very basis of our health .. next to iron. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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excellent response ….very factual,,easy to understand thanks

WOW – I think I’ll FRAME this one!   Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

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Well .. it seems the researchers .. looked at the areas supplemented .. and DID find the malaria became endemic in those areas. So since malaria ‘feeds’ on iron .. and those with higher iron stores cannot kick the malaria .. but those with less iron stores CAN? Malria has been endemic in Africa nd the South SEas for centuries if not eons.  Also, malaria does NOT "feed" on iron … it consumes the protein contents of the cell, leaving the iron behind.

You talk like you know what you are talking about but it seems you don’t. Don’t feel bad though ..not many people DO ..’understand’ how the immune system works. Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf  It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity.

Well like I said.. researchers HAVE looked and HAVE seen a correlation. The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind.  So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic.  It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia.

So what you’re saying is .. the ‘figures’ are ’skewed’ in that since more people are SURVIVING .. then there are MORE people who HAVE NOT DIED and thusly when looking at the figures .. there are more people ALIVE .. BUT ..they .. STILL .. ‘have’.. malaria .. SO .. it ‘looks’ like malaria has BECOME endemic.. BECAUSE the high rate of people who are still alive .. have malaria? And the REASON they are still alive .. is BECAUSE of iron supplementation? Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria.  Medicine is full of this kind of choice.

And this is based on .. studies of WELL FED .. non starving .. non malnourished .. populations? And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them?   That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen.  Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are.

Well another ‘theory’ of yours shot to hell by actual research. And the fact you say the researchers are skewing / doctoring their findings .. leads one to believe you are willing to ‘pull anything’out of your hat to bolster your stance .. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Malaria DEPLETES iron stores.  The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver.

The body HAS NO WAY to excrete iron ..once it gets past the gut. The body simply will not allow it to be excreted. The body has specialized proteins which do nothing BUT recycle the iron in the body. The body controls the iron it has in it by absorption ..and downregulates the iron it absorbs when a set limit is met/hit. It simply absorbs ‘less of a percentage’ of the iron from your food. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron?   India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA.  The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate.  If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World.   Genetics?  Lack of reporting?  How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record.  Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option.

Again .. unreported .. cannot even be considered  in this light BECAUSE that is the ONLY way one can actually ‘argue’ scientifically .. but as you have seen the statistics .. twice as much in the Western World would have to have ALOT of unreported deaths to account for THAT much of a discrepency. I wonder what the incidence of cleft palate is NOW .. since iron fortification has been HALTED in the Scandanavians? Who lovesya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? A simple way? No.  For starters, "the Third World" is spread all over the planet, and each area has distinct nutritional problems. I ‘think’ what it would take is ‘if’ it exists .. to check the studies which have looked into the incidence of cleft palate .. and WHERE they are MOSTLY .. ‘generally’.

  You need the nutritional status of the mothers of these babies, not just a raw incidence rate, if you are to make a correlation. Then go to the WHO and find out where they have been supplementing iron / or adding fortified iron foods?

  How do you know which parts of the population are getting the iron fortified foods?  It isn’t evenly distributed across the countries. Then see if there IS somewhat of a correlation.

  But is it appearing in the babies whose mothers ATE the fortified foods, or those that DIDN’T EAT the fortified foods?   Pretty much how they found out that where they supplemented iron overseas .. they now have malaria which is ‘endemic’ .. long lasting and will not go away.

  That’s UNRELATED to supplementation, and VERY RELATED to malaria getting resistant to the drugs used to treat it, AND changes in agriculture.  Planting RICE fields is very good for malaria, as is clearing forests and building cities.  Anopheles LOVES cities. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron?

  India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA.  The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate.  If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron.   FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake.  Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate.   It’s a partly genetic, partly environmental, partly nutritional thing.   Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

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Pretty much how they found out that where they supplemented iron overseas .. they now have malaria which is ‘endemic’ .. long lasting and will not go away.   That’s UNRELATED to supplementation, and VERY RELATED to malaria getting resistant to the drugs used to treat it, AND changes in agriculture.  Planting RICE fields is very good for malaria, as is clearing forests and building cities.  Anopheles LOVES cities.

Well .. it seems the researchers .. looked at the areas supplemented .. and DID find the malaria became endemic in those areas. So since malaria ‘feeds’ on iron .. and those with higher iron stores cannot kick the malaria .. but those with less iron stores CAN? And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them? I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and

the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron?   India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA.  The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate.  If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron.

I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World. So since they have an incidence of *genetic* iron excess AND meat eating their incidence of cleft palate being related to iron IS consistent with my theory.   FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake.  Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate.

Hmmm .. how would they know this? Vitamin A excess in a dog? Studies? Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well .. it seems the researchers .. looked at the areas supplemented .. and DID find the malaria became endemic in those areas. So since malaria ‘feeds’ on iron .. and those with higher iron stores cannot kick the malaria .. but those with less iron stores CAN? Malria has been endemic in Africa nd the South SEas for centuries if not eons.  Also, malaria does NOT "feed" on iron … it consumes the protein contents of the cell, leaving the iron behind. Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf  It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity. The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind.  So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic.  It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia. Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria.  Medicine is full of this kind of choice. And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them?   That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen.  Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’. Malaria DEPLETES iron stores.  The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and  the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron?   India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA.  The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate.  If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World.   Genetics?  Lack of reporting?  How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record.  Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option. So since they have an incidence of *genetic* iron excess AND meat eating their incidence of cleft palate being related to iron IS consistent with my theory.   FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake.  Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate. Hmmm .. how would they know this? Vitamin A excess in a dog? Studies?   Yes … done in beagles years ago.  Over-supplementing pets is causing problems. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

TSU excellent response ….very factual,,easy to understand thanks bob

Response:

Well .. it seems the researchers .. looked at the areas supplemented .. and DID find the malaria became endemic in those areas. So since malaria ‘feeds’ on iron .. and those with higher iron stores cannot kick the malaria .. but those with less iron stores CAN?

Malria has been endemic in Africa nd the South SEas for centuries if not eons.  Also, malaria does NOT "feed" on iron … it consumes the protein contents of the cell, leaving the iron behind. Please see http://www.ilsi.org/file/b1_malaria.pdf  It has some wierd thing with the fonts, making it unpasteable, but the consensus was that areas that supplemented iron in children had no clear indication of increased morbidity. The major killer in malaria is the ANEMIA (yes, anemia kills, usually be heart failure), and the malaria parasites don’t leave usable iron behind.  So, even mild infections with malaria will make a victim anemic.  It’s quite possible that more children are surviving with malaria because the iron supplements keep them from dying of anemia. Right now, the danger of children dying of iron deficiency anemia is DEFINITELY greater than that of MAYBE having a higher suceptibility to malaria.  Medicine is full of this kind of choice. And the use of ‘alternating magnetic waves’ which use the ’shaken baby syndrome’ to kill malaria due to the alternating waves shaking the iron in the malaria so hard it kill them?

  That hasn’t been shown to work outside the lab of the person who claimed to make it happen.  Anything strong enough to "shake" the iron in the RBC would be disastrous to the bone marrow where the main iron stores are. I would tend to believe the malaria and supplemention leading to higher iron stores would be more of a valid ‘hypotheses’.

Malaria DEPLETES iron stores.  The iron in uninfected RBC can be recycled almost 10% by the body, but the iron left behind as "malaria poop" is not in a recyclable form and is excreted by the liver. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron?   India has a largely vegetarian or low-meat eating diet population, much lower than the USA.  The USA has a much higher rate of iron supplements given to pregnant women than India does (despite the efforts of WHO), and a lower incidence of cleft palate.  If India has a higher incidence of cleft palate, it doesn’t look like you can blame meat OR iron. I need to get some more sleep.. The incidence in India is 1/1,500 , US – 1/700 , Japan – 1/500 , Europe – 1/1000 and Norway no statistics but they do say they have one of the highest in the World.

  Genetics?  Lack of reporting?  How many babies with severe cleft palate are born in poverty-stricken Indian villages and die within days, leaving no record.  Remember that a deformed child is often viewed in a superstitious light and just letting it die is a common option. So since they have an incidence of *genetic* iron excess AND meat eating their incidence of cleft palate being related to iron IS consistent with my theory.   FWIW, excess of Vitamin A seems to be one of the causes of cleft palate in dogs. Vitamin A is an essential nutrient for normal growth and defects in bone growth are seen with insufficient as well as excessive dietary intake.  Vitamin A has a controlling influence over both the osteoblasts and osteoclasts in epithelial cartilage and so there is a rational explanation as to why excessive vitamin A intake might result in cleft palate. Hmmm .. how would they know this? Vitamin A excess in a dog? Studies?

  Yes … done in beagles years ago.  Over-supplementing pets is causing problems. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

Response:

I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate. There is no verifying a point that doesn’t exist.

And you base this .. on ..? A study somewhere? Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? A simple way? No.  For starters, "the Third World" is spread all over the planet, and each area has distinct nutritional problems.

I ‘think’ what it would take is ‘if’ it exists .. to check the studies which have looked into the incidence of cleft palate .. and WHERE they are MOSTLY .. ‘generally’. Then go to the WHO and find out where they have been supplementing iron / or adding fortified iron foods? Then see if there IS somewhat of a correlation. Pretty much how they found out that where they supplemented iron overseas .. they now have malaria which is ‘endemic’ .. long lasting and will not go away. Since I believe ‘iron’ is involved and the iron from meat is GREATLY involved .. the iron fortification and meat eating in the US .. accounts the HIGHEST incidence of cleft palate of 500/100,000 and so with India and their 1000/100,000 I was wondering since they do fortify food in India whether there could/would be a HIGHER incidence of cleft palate in those areas in which they are supplementing iron? Who loves ya. Tom First you have to find out the incidence of cleft

palate in newborns – difficult in itself because a major characteristic of a "Third world" region is the lack of good medical systems.  Then you have to analyse the diet for each region and find the daily iron intake – keeping in mind that some aeras place pregnant women on a diferent diet than the usual population – it may be a better diet, or a worse diet than usual. Then you can start looking for correlations. This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

– Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate.

There is no verifying a point that doesn’t exist. Michele

Response:

I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World?

A simple way? No.  For starters, "the Third World" is spread all over the planet, and each area has distinct nutritional problems. First you have to find out the incidence of cleft palate in newborns – difficult in itself because a major characteristic of a "Third world" region is the lack of good medical systems.  Then you have to analyse the diet for each region and find the daily iron intake – keeping in mind that some aeras place pregnant women on a diferent diet than the usual population – it may be a better diet, or a worse diet than usual. Then you can start looking for correlations. This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate.

Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

Response:

I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate.

I don’t know about the Third World, but there might be something about this in: Heinonen OP et al.: Birth Defects and Drugs in Pregnancy. Littleton: Publishing Sciences Group, Inc. 1977. This book summarizes and reports the results from the Collaborative Perinatal Project, a massive study (50,000 women) that looked for undiscovered teratogens (birth- defect producing) agents.  And they found them, too. I don’t remember if they looked at any nutritional supplements, but they looked at lots of stuff you can get without a prescription. IIRC, women who used products containing boric acid (widely used as an antiseptic) had double the rate of birth defects in their babies.  This is especially alarming because boric acid isn’t a particularly good antiseptic — it’s about as toxic to human cells as to pathogens.  It was brought into antiseptic use because a prominent 19th century bacteriologist thought it was good for that purpose.

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I was wondering if anyone would know .. a simple way .. of verifying the coincidence of cleft palate and the incidence of iron supplementation in the Third World? This is in regards to the finding of iron excess being linked to cleft palate. Who loves ya. Tom — Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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