Talk Cancer

Question:

The insertion of the needle.

The needle is inserted and it causes sensations in other parts of the body– why? What is the connection and how does it do it?  You know, by being this non specific, acupuncture DOES sound like therapeutic touch.  You know, the sensations from therapeutic touch are "caused" by the hand passing over the body.  If your explanation can go no further than that, then I can see why some people *would* think of acupuncture as therapeutic touch. BL

Response:

Thameturgy is by definition supernatural.  It claims that the individuals powers are manifest by a SPECIAL relationship with a deity.    

Not sure what you mean.  Most therapeutic touch practiitioners that I know of feel that everyone has the same power, it is just more highly developed or practiced in some people.  I don’t think they believe they have a special relationship with the deity– just that their art is more practiced.  As far as I know, there are probably some agnostics that do therapeutic touch.  Some may feel they have a special "gift," in the same sense that a child prodigy musician has a "gift." The point is that one can be interested in most anything to the point of it taking over the spirit– it can be allopathic medicine, it can be politics, it can be acupuncture, etc. BL

Response:

Do you remember that I told you meridians are artificial constructs and that the underlying physiological pathways are what they INTEND to map?  

Yes, but you said there was a correspondence. As a matter of fact, I dared to say that the meridians are just a didactic construct and not a physical reality in and of themselves.  

Yes, and that didn’t make sense to me given that you said that the meridians were corresponding to the physiolgical pathways. I even said that the meridians may go places not on the physiological pathway and that the physiological pathways extend beyond the artificial boundaries of the meridians.  

OK, then answer this.  You say that stimulating an acupuncture point can cause a gland to excrete more hormone.  You said that the messages were along a physiological pathway.  OK.  But, if as you say, the meridian and the physiological pathway are not the same in this case, then if a point is stimulated according to meridian and the physiological pathway is not the same, how does the gland "know" to excrete more hormone???  By what method? Has knowledge of physiological pathways changed the acupuncture points that have been traditionally used?  Why even use the meridians at all????  Is it because it "works"?? BL

Response:

Glad to help.   I’m glad you now realize there are methodological differences between acupuncture and allopathy.  

Yes, and it explains why you won’t quote studies.   However it also means that acupuncture is not science based.   So why do you make such a fuss about scientific literacy.   The two seem incompatible.   Unless it is to prevent criticism and become accepted as primary care providers. Seems a touch hypocritical to me. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

Just a quick comment then I’m gone. At 69 I’m not in the mood to enter all these argument exchanges. Such a waste of energy (Qui) TCM that we know it was put together by the Chinese government. Other countries have also added their influence to the practice of acupuncture. My involvement: I’be been getting AP for some time now from a licensed physician with about 20 years experience. His father studied it in Europe. As a newspaper reporter I did articles back in the 1970s both for the paper and to free lance. Attended some of the IVAS training sessions at U.C.(International Veterinarian Acoupncture Society. Now why can’t you guys go your own way and stop the bickering. I’m beginning to believe you enjoy it. Joy Peace from an aging member of the human race. Joy They tookTCM from a simple folk medicine into an organized, scientific study of human health & therapeutics. I wonder how many debunkers they had to bypass to get this done?  How many years did it take? Jan

Before you buy.

Response:

an, You can only debunk that which is composed of bunk.

Really? You mean like Bar…rat does acupuncture and TCM? Thus, you understand Hulda’s fear of research and investigation.    

Gettin tired of bein wrong…..yet? Jan

Response:

Just a quick comment then I’m gone. At 69 I’m not in the mood to enter all these argument exchanges. Such a waste of energy (Qui)

Hey Cool.  A qi believer!!!! As a newspaper reporter I did articles back in the 1970s both for the paper and to free lance. Attended some of the IVAS training sessions at U.C.(International Veterinarian Acoupncture Society.

You must know a lot about it.  You could add to the discussion here.  Are meridians "didactic" or are they "real"?   Now why can’t you guys go your own way and stop the bickering. I’m beginning to believe you enjoy it.

I’m just trying to figure out exactly how it works.  If a meridian isn’t necessarily on a physiological pathway, yet a point on a meridian causes a gland far away to produce more or less hormone, how does the signal go from one place to another? I’d also like to know what happens along a meridian, or, alternatively, along a physiological pathway. I’d also like to know what causes the tingly feeling acupuncture gives me, far away from the needle.  Andrew, an acupuncturist, says this has nothing to do with qi.  But how does the needle cause this feeling?  Do you have any ideas? Thanks. BL

Response:

They tookTCM from a simple folk medicine into an organized, scientific study of human health & therapeutics.

I wonder how many debunkers they had to bypass to get this done?  How many years did it take? Jan

Response:

 The highly semantic nature of studying TCM is part of the classification and structure of TCM that was contributed by the Confucians.   They took TCM from a simple folk medicine into an organized, scientific study of human health & therapeutics.  Being very discerning in your observations & terms is essential, not mere ritual.    

And they did it without double blind studies, working the way many alt practitioners do today. Double blind studies do not require modern practitioners to be very discerning in their observations & terms, they just need to apply the ritual and the results pop out.    Discernment is still needed to interpret the results properly, and that is still in short supply. Thanks for that Andrew, I hadn’t thought of it that way before. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

True, but allopathic medicine is based on a bio-medical model.  While many fancy themselves as extraordinary, few are really into believing they have supernatural powers.

And Andrew, YOU define what is natural and what is supernatural?  So, acupuncture is "natural" and therapeutic touch is "supernatural"???  Usually these terms are derived culturally.  Our culture fifty years ago would have defined acupuncture as "supernatural." Personally, I don’t dichotomize things on the natural-supernatural continuum. The organizing principles I use are effective, ineffective– proven, unproven– harmless, risky– explainable, unexplained– fraudulent, sincere(these going to the motive of the practitioner).  Furthermore, there is a continuum in each of these, shades of gray so to speak.   So a tradition physician can sometimes recommend a cancer therapy or an operation  that is ineffective, unproven, risky, explainable and sincere.  I have a problem with that.  I would rather have someone recommend NAET, which is effective, unproven, safe, unexplainable and sincere.   BL

Response:

No, Qi is a qualitative description of a function or process. The sensation is not the Qi.  

What is the sensation caused by? BL

Response:

Thanks Karuna– From NCCAM site: Western scientists have found meridians hard to identify because meridians do not directly correspond to nerve or blood circulation pathways.

Interesting.  As I recall, Andrew said the meridians did correspond.  Oh, well. Acupuncture points are believed to stimulate the central nervous system (the brain and spinal cord) to release chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord, and brain.

Yes, but even that has a mechanism, right?  Otherwise it sounds hocus pocus. According to Andrew this is done on a physiological pathway.  Yet, according to what you quoted the physiolical pathways do not correspond to the meridians, yet the points stimulated are on the meridians.  So acupuncture is starting to sound more and more "supernatural" (as Andrew classifies things). These chemicals either change the experience of pain or release other chemicals, such as hormones, that influence the body’s self-regulating systems. The biochemical changes may stimulate the body’s natural healing abilities and promote physical and emotional well-being. There are three main mechanisms:

Yes, I understand.  But there has to be a connection between the point and the gland and some type of communication.  I’m trying to find the form of communication and the direction, etc. between the needle and the gland. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Conduction of electromagnetic signals: Western scientists have found evidence that acupuncture points an strategic conductors of electromagnetic signals. Stimulating points along these pathways through acupuncture enables electromagnetic signals to be relayed at it greater rate than under normal conditions These signals may start the flow of pain-killing biochemicals such as endorphins and of immune system cells to specific sites in the that are injured or vulnerable to disease. Activation of opioid systems: research has found that several types of opioids may be released into the central nervous system during acupuncture treatment, thereby reducing pain Changes in brain chemistry sensation, and Involuntary body functions: studies have shown that acupuncture may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones in a good way. Acupuncture also has been documented to affect the parts of the central nervous system related to sensation and involuntary body functions, such as immune reactions and processes whereby a person’s blood pressure, blood flow, and body temperature are regulated.

This is a description of WHAT acupuncture does.  I want to know WHY it does it.  See the difference? BL

Response:

True, but allopathic medicine is based on a bio-medical model.  While many fancy themselves as extraordinary, few are really into believing they have supernatural powers. And Andrew, YOU define what is natural and what is supernatural?  So, acupuncture is "natural" and therapeutic touch is "supernatural"???  Usually these terms are derived culturally.  Our culture fifty years ago would have defined acupuncture as "supernatural."

dont even have to go that far back…i believe the AMA was denouncing acupuncture as blatant quackery in the mid seventies. andrew has tried so very hard to set himself apart from those who believe in a treatment method without scientific proof of its efficiacy. it’s just a tough spot to be in when one happens to be learning TCM / acupuncture. i find it so very curious how someone with his professed abhorrence of unproven (by western standards of proof) treatments got into acupuncture in the first place. part of my whole confusion over kali and andrew has been their persistent denouncements and sarcastic derisions of anything and everything else while maintaining their stiff upper lip over acupuncture. oh, sure, they denounce Qi, but without Qi, what is left? well, no one rightly knows, do they? so Qi seems like as good an explanation as any til science can come up with something else—-which it STILL hasnt managed to do even after 20 years. an interesting thing that i have noticed here at mha, those who are frequently the most vocal with their alt-lifestyle derision are folks who (by their own admission) spent a good part of their time–years, even—pursuing various alt treatments. yet these are supposedly hard core scientific types!!! (AF, kali, andy…and whoever else has tried their share of ‘bogus’ treatments and has since become an all-out sci-med.) this tells me that anyone like this has come to the worshipping of the science gods late in life and that they were, at one point or another, just EXACTLY like the people they are regularly ridiculing. just another reason that i find that form of communication completely ineffective. Personally, I don’t dichotomize things on the natural-supernatural continuum. The organizing principles I use are effective, ineffective– proven, unproven– harmless, risky– explainable, unexplained– fraudulent, sincere(these going to the motive of the practitioner).  Furthermore, there is a continuum in each of these, shades of gray so to speak.

excellent. now, if we could only get andy to simply admit to the acupuncture / unproven-unexplained part (not saying ineffective, fraudulent, risky) simply unproven.  and that in spite of his disdain for those who have little working knowledge of modern science, he is no different than they are when it comes to his very own beloved acupuncture. Remove one ‘m’ from mpinet to use your reply option….. Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog. — Dorothy Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

Response:

I wish I could give you a brief & concise answer to those questions. However, the background information & terms alone would take quite a while to get through.  Frankly, these are issues that most acupuncture students are never really clear on.   A very nice and honest post Andrew.

Yes, I agree.  And it is not only acupuncture students that are not clear, it is the rest of the world too.  It is acupuncture teachers, and the scientific community as well. Hmmmm– NAET isn’t well understood either.  Funny how it doesn’t take well understood modalities to produce good clinical results. BL

Response:

Physiological Pathway:  The physical structures that lie on or underneath the meridian.   These include nerves, connective tissue, skin, bone, etc.   The actual physiological pathway’s boundaries are those of the anatomical structures contained therein Meridian:  The theoretical pathway that connects a particular set of acupuncture points corresponding with a particular Functional Unit, commonly named after an organ.  

Andrew– it really just sounds like you are making semantic distinctions, and that a meridian, for all practical purposes, is the physiological pathway.  I realize that the meridians were developed by trial and error and mapping or whatever over thousands of years, but then the physiological pathways were confirmed by more modern science to be in the same place as the didactic meridian theory. JMHO but it sounds like just a westernization of the TCM jargon to make it more palatable or something.  I find this to be rather presumptuous.  Not by you in particular, but whoever introduced you to these distinctions that seem only semantic. Now, as far as qi goes, what is the modernization of that term– firing of neurons or something?  Now that I realize that the physiological pathway is akin to the meridian, what is the western term for qi?  How does the message flow along the "physiological pathway"? BL

Response:

BL, NAET has no demonstrated efficacy, TCM does.

But results matter to you, right?  Not the theory behind it?  After all, as you stated, TCM theory is little understood.  Yet efficacy is demonstrated.  NAET has had no published studies, and acupuncture has.   But therapeutic touch and magnets, for instance, do have studies demonstrating efficacy.  Both are little understood as theories.  You may object because you say the studies are not definitive, but you are not objecting that that the theory behind them is little understood?  After all, acupuncture is in the same place theoretically speaking. BL

Response:

This is why I take such a hard line against arm-chair physicians and new-age types.    Their approach is always based upon building up their belief system as opposed to the best interests of the patient. I believe this is the single biggest reason there is SO little clarity on this.   To accept it would cost a lot of insecure people one of their belief system’s central pillars.    

One could make the same argument about allopathic physicians, that they can make their profession their religion, so to speak.  The hospitals are the temples, and the double blind studies and blood tests  are the rituals, the medications are the sacriments, and, of course, the MDs are the priests.   Not saying that all have this attitude of course. A clear understanding of terms and diction is critical in understanding any science, especially so when the terms can have many connotations to choose from.

So we rename terms to suit our fancy after we adapt a medical treatment that has been tried in another culture for thousands of years?  This, Andrew, is a very ethnocentric attitude. BL

Response:

Part of this sensation is purely contact, some portion is electric as the needle has a different conductivity than the body itself.   So, the sensation travels from the nerves to the brain just like other physical stimuli.  

Does this "electric" feeling affect qi?  How?  Is that the part that is not clearly understood? BL

Response:

Now, as far as qi goes, what is the modernization of that term– firing of neurons or something?  Now that I realize that the physiological pathway is akin to the meridian, what is the western term for qi?  How does the message flow along the "physiological pathway"? BL

BL, there are five, not one, forms of qi in TCM. Here is one explanation: The Forms of Qi (Vital Energy) in Acupuncture By Ralph Alan Dale This is a condensed version of the article from the American Journal of Acupuncture Vol. 22, #3, 1994. The concept of Qi (sometimes spelled "Chi", pronounced "chee"), or vital energy, is fundamental to traditional Chinese medical thought. There is nothing comparable in allopathic (conventional Western) medicine. While human physiology in allopathic medicine is organized according to specialized function, Chinese medicine is more concerned with dynamics of interrelationships, especially the patterns of vital energy. Traditional Chinese medicine defines the five main forms of Qi Energy