Talk Cancer

Question:

Class E, See and avoid, All the other SHIT. The system is a complete stuff up. All the changes, all the costs, to no advantage. Have we saved anything ? All it will take is one big prang, and the government will spend millions on safety, when it had a safe system to start with. When will the pricks in Canberra learn. — If you can’t be good, be good at it. Cheers, Hoges.

Response:

Class E, See and avoid, All the other SHIT. The system is a complete stuff up. All the changes, all the costs, to no advantage. Have we saved anything ? All it will take is one big prang, and the government will spend millions on safety, when it had a safe system to start with. When will the pricks in Canberra learn.

It’s really sad isn’t it to see what has become of the Australian airspace system. It used to be probably the best in the world. The same can’t be said now. They say that a person must be prepared to accept change, well to that I say "BOLLOCKS" Trevor Fenn

Response:

It’s really sad isn’t it to see what has become of the Australian airspace system. It used to be probably the best in the world. The same can’t be said now. They say that a person must be prepared to accept change, well to that I say "BOLLOCKS" Trevor Fenn

  Well said Trev, After flying in several countries I have to agree with you, Australia is over-regulated with a traffic cop mentality when it comes to aviation and it seems that all efforts to change this only creates new problems for GA types. In fact I get the impression that the authorities consider GA to be an inconvienience and would rather only have scheduled airline traffic to and from syd/melb/adl/…etc….with all arrivals in the mornings only and a break between 11 and 2 then departures only and no traffic between 6pm and 6am and a percentage of  airways charges and movement fees to be paid to staff on duty at the time as a gratuity (like some places in Asia). We already have some of the safest airspace in the world here and I think that the politicians are only trying to milk us for more dollars under the guise of more safety …end result is  the scene in england a few years back and with simular costs (110 pounds an hour for a 172 with normally another 60 for fees afterwards) I give my vote to the New Zealand system for user friendliness and cost and above all simplicity (a system we will eventually adopt here) I still think that the south island of NZ is the best place to fly in the world…especially over the canterbury plains and ski fields and lakes in the alpine regions.

Response:

postulated: After flying in several countries I have to agree with you, Australia is over-regulated with a traffic cop mentality when it comes to aviation and it seems that all efforts to change this only creates new problems for GA types.

Unfortunately, the training system and charter industry isn’t regulated enough. Maybe if these two areas were sorted out a whole lot of other problems may fall into place. So I wouldn’t say GA was squeaky clean by any stretch of the imagination. My $0.02 (to change the subject a tad!) Gav… Gav. (One of the last of an endangered species…        ….the white heterosexual male……)

Response:

postulated: After flying in several countries I have to agree with you, Australia is over-regulated with a traffic cop mentality when it comes to aviation and it seems that all efforts to change this only creates new problems for GA types. Unfortunately, the training system and charter industry isn’t regulated enough. Maybe if these two areas were sorted out a whole lot of other problems may fall into place. So I wouldn’t say GA was squeaky clean by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh? And what do you see is wrong with the charter industry. A little elaboration might go a long way towards some meaningful discussion on this topic. Having spent considerable time as a pilot in the australian charter industry and a small amount of time as a chief pilot in GA I’d be interested to hear of your thoughts including exactly where you are viewing the industry from. Trevor Fenn

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – postulated: After flying in several countries I have to agree with you, Australia is over-regulated with a traffic cop mentality when it comes to aviation and it seems that all efforts to change this only creates new problems for GA types. Unfortunately, the training system and charter industry isn’t regulated enough. Maybe if these two areas were sorted out a whole lot of other problems may fall into place. So I wouldn’t say GA was squeaky clean by any stretch of the imagination. My $0.02 (to change the subject a tad!) Gav…

Hello all, I missed the first posts on this subject and offer my 2 cents worth also. I also believe that we have some ‘over regulation’ in some areas, but believe that this comes from our history and connections with the UK in the past.  If you have flown there, you will know what ‘over regulation’ is all about….! Like all industies, we have a few bad apples that spoil it for the rest of us which at times make the regulator make up new rules to ‘protect’ everyone else from themselves.  I think the charter industry is not that bad, provided those in it have the right attitude etc. The problem part of the industry in this country (and overseas) is the flying training area.   With few exceptions the ‘average’ product produced by the ‘average flying school’ in this country is nowhere near as good as it was 10 years ago, and that product is nowhere near as good as that produced 20 or 30 years ago. The basic problem is like a cancer that is or has filtered right through the industry over the past 10 or 15 years.  We now have pilots being trained by junior flying instructors who where trained by junior flying instructors who were trained by junior flying instructors etc etc… at least 15 or 20 generations.  Now don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with having junior flying instructors PROVIDED that they operate under appropriate supervision.  How many schools have their CFI’s or senior instructors conduct regular product checks these days?? How many CFI’s fly with their staff on a regular basis for other than renewals? Once upon a time those within the charter and airlines that rose into training (and checking) roles would have had some previous instructional experience, even of the basic kind.  Now it is common to see pilots in those senior positons (in charter and airlines) with no previous instructing background whatsoever. Not so bad in the larger companies that have courses etc.  But then there is no CASA requirements in this area of instructing – not even a PMI course which a junior instructor must complete….. The first thing to be lost in this saga is basic airmanship.  It seems that it is not passed on any more.  For example how many aeroplanes do you see start up at night with no lights on first?  How many pilots taxi into the parking area with their strobes still flashing away?  Do those same pilots then wander off and leave their aircraft unchocked and/or with no control locks in?  And like an iceberg, that is only what you can see. Basic flying skills seem to have been lost also.  How many aircraft do you see flying what is obviously a ‘fast’ approach.  Many have never been shown the correct speed from the aircraft flight manual!!  How many pilots can fly a constant powered approach to a nominated touchdown point on the runway?  Obviously there are many instructors that can’t – because they don’t seem to teach it!! There are many other examples of what ‘has been lost’ in the training over the years.  The trouble is that now many don’t even know what they don’t know! And this would include many of todays CFI’s who are themselves a victim of this saga. CASA have a responsibility for some of this, but it is the flying schools that must take an even greater share of the blame.  Of course the $$ might also have an influence???? Thats enough on this soapbox… cheers Doug (my own views)

Response:

The problem part of the industry in this country (and overseas) is the flying training area.   With few exceptions the ‘average’ product produced by the ‘average flying school’ in this country is nowhere near as good as it was 10 years ago, and that product is nowhere near as good as that produced 20 or 30 years ago.

Agreed. The first thing to be lost in this saga is basic airmanship.  It seems that it is not passed on any more.  For example how many aeroplanes do you see start up at night with no lights on first?

You flash your landing light first. So ?  How many pilots taxi into the parking area with their strobes still flashing away?

I do. Do those same pilots then wander off and leave their aircraft unchocked and/or with no control locks in?

Not me. And like an iceberg, that is only what you can see. Basic flying skills seem to have been lost also.  How many aircraft do you see flying what is obviously a ‘fast’ approach.

What’s wrong with a fast approach. Or do you want me to fly in so KSA with a 3 mile full flap final, in a C150. Many have never been shown the correct speed from the aircraft flight manual!!  How many pilots can fly a constant powered approach to a nominated touchdown point on the runway?

Only when I’m sober. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -snip<

Response:

Unfortunately, the training system and charter industry isn’t regulated enough. Maybe if these two areas were sorted out a whole lot of other problems may fall into place. So I wouldn’t say GA was squeaky clean by any stretch of the imagination. The first thing to be lost in this saga is basic airmanship.  It seems that it is not passed on any more.   Basic flying skills seem to have been lost also.  

Add another – knowing where you are so as to avoid or resolve a conflict. Earlier this week I was given traffic on a VFR single passing across our track on descent above a layer of broken cloud. FS tried to extract the necessary ‘where are you’ for our common good, but this guy only gave his from/to and altitude. While FS and I both tried to drag the ‘where are you right now?’ from him, he continued with his reasons for being on top of the broken layer. We eventually knew where he’d climbed on top and where he intended to descend back underneath, but he wasn’t going to say where he was in relation to much else. I had no argument with his choice of VFR above this layer, but he seemed to think it was our only reason for chatting with him. FS gave up, suggesting I resolve the conflict myself – can’t say I blamed him – which we did by staying high till way off his track. Not much use this guy keeping his radio on if that’s the best he could do with it, but to his credit he did pipe up to the initial call. — Pete

Response:

You flash your landing light first. So ?  How many pilots taxi into the parking area with their strobes still flashing away? I do.

Tsk tsk tsk naughty naughty. The pilot preflighting his plane next to you then curses you for destroying his night vision. That is NOT good airmanship. Turn off strobes when exiting the runway; turn  them on when entering. Cheers John — TO REPLY: Remove the word "Nospam" from my Reply-To address. Check out http://www.icq.com/ for a very good computer chat program…ICQ 8529894 8:00PM to 9:30PM weeknites Sydney time. Aviation enthusiasts – drop in! I’ll chat planes to anybody.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortunately, the training system and charter industry isn’t regulated enough. Maybe if these two areas were sorted out a whole lot of other problems may fall into place. So I wouldn’t say GA was squeaky clean by any stretch of the imagination. The first thing to be lost in this saga is basic airmanship.  It seems that it is not passed on any more. Basic flying skills seem to have been lost also. Add another – knowing where you are so as to avoid or resolve a conflict. Earlier this week I was given traffic on a VFR single passing across our track on descent above a layer of broken cloud. FS tried to extract the necessary ‘where are you’ for our common good, but this guy only gave his from/to and altitude. While FS and I both tried to drag the ‘where are you right now?’ from him, he continued with his reasons for being on top of the broken layer. We eventually knew where he’d climbed on top and where he intended to descend back underneath, but he wasn’t going to say where he was in relation to much else. I had no argument with his choice of VFR above this layer, but he seemed to think it was our only reason for chatting with him. FS gave up, suggesting I resolve the conflict myself – can’t say I blamed him – which we did by staying high till way off his track. Not much use this guy keeping his radio on if that’s the best he could do with it, but to his credit he did pipe up to the initial call.

Probably, because he was on top, he did NOT know where he was! (Exactly that is) I often have to talk to RPT flights as to where I am, ’specially if they are descending on top of me (eg tracking PMQ to TRE to WLM and a Sunstate B1900 (?) is decending from CTA over WLM to TRE). As WLM TACAN may not be up yet on the dash, I use a handheld GPS to back up my distance, giving my distance e.g. WLM as "(distance) UNOFFICIAL GPS, TACAN not yet available". This may not be the way one is supposed to play it, but it does give some idea to the RPT that descending at that time may not be a good idea… I do find that spot a little tricky at times, due to the freq. changes and a/c descending from CTA. They do not get our VFR traffic, so they and us have to be pretty vigilante on the radio. Single com a/c make it harder still… Cheers John — Pete

– TO REPLY: Remove the word "Nospam" from my Reply-To address. Check out http://www.icq.com/ for a very good computer chat program…ICQ 8529894 8:00PM to 9:30PM weeknites Sydney time. Aviation enthusiasts – drop in! I’ll chat planes to anybody.

Response:

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Still it is amazing what clangers can come out of experienced Pilots. On my elsewhere mentioned recent trip to Mangalore we stopped at Midlura on the way home to Parafiled to get some fuel. 3 Pilots on board and we still managed this: Tracked to MIA from the south and were joining crosswing for runway 18 when a Dash8 sprung into life on the radio and asked us where we were. We told them and they asked why we hadn’t  made any calls on the MBZ frequency!!! I was in the back handing over frequency changes at the appropraite time but hadn’t noticed all our MIA circuit calls were on the area frequency!! We rectified this immediatley and all felt very embarrased and angry that we had pulled such a clanger!! We then despatched a crew member to the Dash8 to apologise. I for one felt damn angry at such stupidity!!! (This is my confession, to absolve me) Full credit to the Dash8 blokes for keeping notes on who’s talking and where. Cheers,

Giday there Ben, don’t feel too bad, so long as you learnt something from the experience. One of the things that the RPT chaps have is experience in operating into such aerodromes and the ability to make effective use of 2 VHF radios at the same time.  You are not the first to do that and most likely won’t be the last.  Many think that because you don’t hear a response in an MBZ there is no traffic….WRONG!  It’s when you think there is none, something turns up. Did you notice that there is a VHF response unit (beepback unit) at Mildura.  It has been in for about two months now and we generally think it is great.  What did you think of it? (once on the MBZ freq of course!) Good to see your post and appreciate your comments.  No, it was not me in the Dash, I was out of town at Easter. Ben Matthes Adelaide, South Australia

cheers Doug

Response:

Turn off strobes when exiting the runway; turn  them on when entering. As is the practise of most airlines including the one that employs me. James

As is the case with all airlines.  Pitty, it seems that many instructors don’t teach it any more.   If they did, then maybe many pilot’s would turn them off.

Response:

Turn off strobes when exiting the runway; turn  them on when entering. As is the practise of most airlines including the one that employs me. James As is the case with all airlines.  Pitty, it seems that many instructors don’t teach it any more.   If they did, then maybe many pilot’s would turn them off.

Just one of many many many things which are not taught properly anymore Trevor Fenn

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s hard to speculate without knowing the details of where it happened but I would imagine he almost certainly had a GPS running, that he set it at his departure point to give him guidance direct to his destination and he couldn’t figure out where he was relative to you while his GPS was still reading several hundred miles to run to his next waypoint/destination. Lets face it GPS has killed the need for many so called pilots to learn to navigate. All they do is fire it up before taxiing then punch in GOTO Destination and away they go. Trevor Fenn

Your not kidding TF, On my recent trip to Mangalore in a 4 place aicraft we had 2 (yes 2!!) GPS on board!!! Not being entirley against them – they have their place, but it was interesting to note the constant attention the GPS’s received from the most recently trained Pilot in the 3 Pilot crew. It was barely left alone. For my point, I don’t know how to use a GPS (I learned nav the old way) but came away from that trip thinking I should know how to use one – just to verify my map reading of course!  :-)) But methinks GPS wasn’t this blokes only problem, it was an inablility to communicate. Like Pete said  earlier (I think it was Pete) some simple DR and situational awareness would have given enough clues to get the radio discussion going. Cheers, Ben Ben Matthes Adelaide, South Australia

Response:

It’s hard to speculate without knowing the details of where it happened but I would imagine he almost certainly had a GPS running, that he set it at his departure point to give him guidance direct to his destination and he couldn’t figure out where he was relative to you while his GPS was still reading several hundred miles to run to his next waypoint/destination. Lets face it GPS has killed the need for many so called pilots to learn to navigate. All they do is fire it up before taxiing then punch in GOTO Destination and away they go.

Just like me — Pete

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Earlier this week I was given traffic on a VFR single passing across our track on descent above a layer of broken cloud. FS tried to extract the necessary ‘where are you’ for our common good, but this guy only gave his from/to and altitude. While FS and I both tried to drag the ‘where are you right now?’ from him, he continued with his reasons for being on top of the broken layer. We eventually knew where he’d climbed on top and where he intended to descend back underneath, but he wasn’t going to say where he was in relation to much else. I had no argument with his choice of VFR above this layer, but he seemed to think it was our only reason for chatting with him. FS gave up, suggesting I resolve the conflict myself – can’t say I blamed him – which we did by staying high till way off his track. Fair go.  If he was on top without GPS or DME then he would be relying on his ADF/VOR, and his on track position would have been a bit vague. Still he should have used his nouse and worked out some estimate from time and speed from his last fix.  I sometimes wonder how many pilots actually keep a flight log ( as they are supposed to). He was so pre-occupied with his track, his excuse for being on top and his intentions on a descent point, that he could well have had a GPS running but never bothered to consult it. The implications of our crossing paths was lost on him. Like you suggest, with or without an ADF (the nearest aid) or a GPS, since he was only 15nm – 20nm from his last reporting or departure point and we were only 20nm – 30nm from our destination at the most likely crossing point, a bit of very simple DR on his part would have helped immensely. Further, I would even have excused any struggle on his part to figure his present point in space, however, he didn’t even seem to understand the reason for our enquiries. — Pete

Still it is amazing what clangers can come out of experienced Pilots. On my elsewhere mentioned recent trip to Mangalore we stopped at Midlura on the way home to Parafiled to get some fuel. 3 Pilots on board and we still managed this: Tracked to MIA from the south and were joining crosswing for runway 18 when a Dash8 sprung into life on the radio and asked us where we were. We told them and they asked why we hadn’t  made any calls on the MBZ frequency!!! I was in the back handing over frequency changes at the appropraite time but hadn’t noticed all our MIA circuit calls were on the area frequency!!   We rectified this immediatley and all felt very embarrased and angry that we had pulled such a clanger!! We then despatched a crew member to the Dash8 to apologise. I for one felt damn angry at such stupidity!!! (This is my confession, to absolve me) Full credit to the Dash8 blokes for keeping notes on who’s talking and where. Cheers, Managalore was good, first visit for me and enjoyed it despite the rain and lower than usual attendance Ben. Ben Matthes Adelaide, South Australia

Response:

Turn off strobes when exiting the runway; turn  them on when entering.

As is the practise of most airlines including the one that employs me. James Time is the best teacher – unfortunately it kills all its students! Disclaimer: The views posted here are my own and not necessarily those of my employer.

Response:

Hello Peter, everyone; You are spot on with your concerns below. FS must share them and that is why they often prop up the system by passing traffic on VFR when they’re **not** supposed to. Thanks to AMATS