Talk Cancer

Question:

You don’t drown but you do get a syndrome called diabetes insipidus (NOT diabetes mellitus, the sugar disease). The concentration of your body’s sodium goes way down and you become lethargic, get seizures, etc. Quite common in some psychiatric illnesses). As for the cancer lady, she probably did drown in her own fluids but probably because heart and lungs weren’t working properly and had spread of the cancer to the lungs. (SNIPPED THE ORIGINAL)

Response:

Anyone have a theory why I feel like crap after the outdoor hike and not the indoor one?

Allergies. Matt Madsen

Response:

One reply to many responses (thanks to all posters): A common rule of thumb when backpacking is to not carry over 1/4 of your weight in your pack, which would be about 33 lbs. Why are you doing this?

Getting used to the weight, since I have to carry something similar on Rainier. This is strictly training and is not meant to be fun. Dehydration.

Note that this is training and the circuit only takes 1 hour. I am drinking 1 litre immediately beforehand, .5 to 1 litre on the trail and lots afterward. Also I have plenty of water with me. That is the main component of the weight is about 17Liters or a little over 4 gallons. Low Glycogen, hypoglycemic reaction

Well I have bonked before and I know what a blood sugar crash feels like. This is not that. Energy level is high throughout the hike. I feel like crap later after. Weekend Warrior syndrome – Need more than one workout.

I do other workouts. I do a similar thing on the stairs midweek quite often. I am also doing longer bike rides at a more relaxed pace for endurance. Until recently I was also doing workouts in the weight room. Sun – snowblindness

The first time thats what I thought it was as well. But I have done it in pouring rain and felt the same. Also I have been biking and running for over an hour and felt fine. I guess I’d wonder why you’re doing this in the first place, though. It sounds like a workout designed to be maximally unpleasant and hard on your body (and not just strength-hard, also bad for your joints). It seems that there would be better/safer workouts for strength, and it also sounds rather short for building up endurance. — Dave

Actually I considering a max power output workout and toughening workout, which may include mental toughening. One thing though after about a month of this, my knees that always used to complain from hiking, are now totally pain free. I do long bike rides and occaisonal longer hikes to work on the endurance. I may starting doing this hike twice a week, instead of the indoor portion. I feel that the max power output for 40 mins is taxing the heck out of something (nerveous system?) its just nothing that I have read about before, and I have read a lot. I have maxed myself out for long periods on a bike, ran flat out for an hour without any after-affects. There just seems to be something uniquely taxing about maxxing out while under significant load, I’d like to figure out what that is. I have been on regular paced backpacking  and longer day hikes with no ill effects. Peter

Response:

One reply to many responses (thanks to all posters):

[SNIP] Dehydration. Note that this is training and the circuit only takes 1 hour. I am drinking 1 litre immediately beforehand, .5 to 1 litre on the trail and lots afterward. Also I have plenty of water with me. That is the main component of the weight is about 17Liters or a little over 4 gallons.

I drink as much as FIVE liters of water in an hour of exercise on my stair stepper  (Heart rate between 155-175 for 60 minutes for 60 minutes.)   If I drank only 1 liter of water in a 1 hour work-out I know that I would get seriously dehydrated.  When I don’t drink enough water, my symptoms are very similar to those you describe.       Drink a minimum of 4 liters over the space of the hour-long work out. I bet you will feel much better.   Kai   http://www.dimensional.com/~kai/

Response:

Weigh yourself before your workout, then immediately after.  You gain or loose water at 2lbs per quart. DR. Edel had an article at HealthCentral.com that may relate to this.  A study found that runners were drinking too much while running.  Because of the physiology involved in intense exercise, the water was not absorbed, but remained in their stomach until they ceased the activity.  Then this large volume of fluid was absorbed into the blood stream, causing heart attacks in some cases.

That could be related to Peter’s problem.  When he stops, the extra water could be causing an electrolyte imbalance similar to hypoglycemia. Morgan.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I drink as much as FIVE liters of water in an hour of exercise on my stair stepper  (Heart rate between 155-175 for 60 minutes for 60 minutes.) If I drank only 1 liter of water in a 1 hour work-out I know that I would get seriously dehydrated.  When I don’t drink enough water, my symptoms are very similar to those you describe. Drink a minimum of 4 liters over the space of the hour-long work out. I bet you will feel much better.   Your stomach can usually only drain one liter an hour.   You are never going to find ANY exercise physiologists telling you to drink four liters in an hour while exercising.

If you sustained that rate of water consumption, you’d probably drown.  I remember a few years back a woman was drinking about 4 gallons of water per day because she had stomach cancer – her lungs filled up with her own fluids and she drowned. Morgan.

Response:

One reply to many responses (thanks to all posters): A common rule of thumb when backpacking is to not carry over 1/4 of your weight in your pack, which would be about 33 lbs. Why are you doing this? Getting used to the weight, since I have to carry something similar on Rainier. This is strictly training and is not meant to be fun.

I believe the figure is that you can carry up to 50% of your lean body mass.  For us weekend warriors with about 25% fat, thats (x-x/4)/2 or about 35% of our total mass.  I know a woman who is 120lbs of pure muscle and carries 55lbs of gear all day and doesn’t even notice it. When I was about 175lbs, that same 55lb load would be just manageable (i.e., totally exhausting but I didn’t fall down). Morgan.

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Are you changing altitude rapidly? Someone else mentioned allergies, try to get some non-drowsy anti- histamines and see what happens (claritin, ?) What are you doing AFTER your workout? Sit on the couch, walk, workout, etc? Maybe your body goes into over-drive with all the weight, and then drops out when the complex carbs are used up, or blood sugar. Possibly, the weight has a greater effect on your workout than you realize? Are your muscles sore afterward or not the next day? -happenin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I drink as much as FIVE liters of water in an hour of exercise on my stair stepper  (Heart rate between 155-175 for 60 minutes for 60 minutes.) Maybe you need a new measuring cup.  Your current one seems to be inaccurate.  I think I’d puke if I tried to drink that much during heavy excercise. Ryan You are right, my measurements are off a bit.  I took some measurements last night.   The water bottles I drink out of are .6 liters not one full liter.  Last night, I worked out for 75 minutes. I drank five full bottles of water.  That is 3 liters.    That is average for me.  Some times when I work out at a higher intensity, I drink even more.  I often drink six bottles in an hour when I’m doing my one hour high intensity work out.  That is  3.6 liters in one hour. I often consume a little bit of energy gel too.  I don’t get sick, I don’t puke, but I do sweat a lot.  I’ve been doing this for several years now.  It works for me. I don’t drink this much when I’m actually out hiking or climbing, but my sustained intensity level is a lot lower then than my in-home work outs. Kai http://www.dimensional.com/~kai/

– –happenin– Before you buy.

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If it is very warm out and you are sweating a lot, very likely you could have salt depletion which will cause nausea.  Eat salty foods, or if you have been sweating a lot and are heavyset use salt tabs. Caveat: if you eat salt, drink more water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pete, Normally I would say no, but it sounds like a pretty intense 65 minute activity. That, and when I wrote the reply it was 93 here.  In that kind of temperatures you need that kind of water.  Of course if that does not work I would think about medical attention… Chris Yes,  drink more water!!  ONe liter before and some aftwards does not cut it.  Drink one liter an hour for about a day before and continuously through the activity.  Then see how you feel. Up ~40 mins up at the max I can push it to on that day, Heart    ^^^^^^^ Rate never below 150 and topping at ~170. Effort is very hard. Back ~25 mins down, Down Jogging, rock hopping down the trail.

–  ____           _    _        _.|._ o._ o _ _|_ |  _ __ ___ _(_)__| |      (_|||_)|| ||_  |_ @eskimo.com | |_) / _` V / / _` |          |

Response:

Weigh yourself before your workout, then immediately after.  You gain or loose water at 2lbs per quart. DR. Edel had an article at HealthCentral.com that may relate to this.  A study found that runners were drinking too much while running.  Because of the physiology involved in intense exercise, the water was not absorbed, but remained in their stomach until they ceased the activity.  Then this large volume of fluid was absorbed into the blood stream, causing heart attacks in some cases. Dave Sidlauskas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I drink as much as FIVE liters of water in an hour of exercise on my stair stepper  (Heart rate between 155-175 for 60 minutes for 60 minutes.) Maybe you need a new measuring cup.  Your current one seems to be inaccurate.  I think I’d puke if I tried to drink that much during heavy excercise. Ryan You are right, my measurements are off a bit.  I took some measurements last night.   The water bottles I drink out of are .6 liters not one full liter.  Last night, I worked out for 75 minutes. I drank five full bottles of water.  That is 3 liters.    That is average for me.  Some times when I work out at a higher intensity, I drink even more.  I often drink six bottles in an hour when I’m doing my one hour high intensity work out.  That is  3.6 liters in one hour. I often consume a little bit of energy gel too.  I don’t get sick, I don’t puke, but I do sweat a lot.  I’ve been doing this for several years now.  It works for me. I don’t drink this much when I’m actually out hiking or climbing, but my sustained intensity level is a lot lower then than my in-home work outs. Kai http://www.dimensional.com/~kai/

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I’m in Ottawa and its nev On medical attention: Frankly if someone did recommend  a good local sports physician to me, I would talk to him, but I think it quite pointless to mention anything about real Hard exercise to a GP as they would just say "Don’t do that"

University of Ottawa Sports medecine clinic, second floor, corner of Sumerset & King Edward.  *very* good & understanding & knowlegable. After wrecking my knee in a bicycle accident, the first thing the doc (there are a few) said was, "lets see how we can get you back on the bike as quickly as possible.", whice the doc at the hospital told me to rest for 6 weeks. -Pete — Pete Hickey               |                         |     WELLS Inc. University of Ottawa      |                         |    time machines Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 562-5800×1008    |     since 2003.

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[snip] On medical attention: Frankly if someone did recommend  a good local sports physician to me, I would talk to him, but I think it quite pointless to mention anything about real Hard exercise to a GP as they would just say "Don’t do that"

There might be a reason for them saying that… — Pat O’Connell Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints, Kill nothing but vandals… —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Pete, Normally I would say no, but it sounds like a pretty intense 65 minute activity. That, and when I wrote the reply it was 93 here.  In that kind of temperatures you need that kind of water.  Of course if that does not work I would think about medical attention…

The worst times were the first couple in the winter, quite a bit below freezing. I’m in Ottawa and its never been about 70F when I have done this (we are having a damp cool spring). My current theory is that it is some kind of overload on the nervous system. The combination of near Anerobic threshold and very high muscle work load overstresses my system. Its a concept that is not highly explored I think. Note: I don’t notice anything during the workout other than the difficulty of doing it. I usually don’t feel bad driving home. Its later after drinking/eating and then relaxing. On medical attention: Frankly if someone did recommend  a good local sports physician to me, I would talk to him, but I think it quite pointless to mention anything about real Hard exercise to a GP as they would just say "Don’t do that" Peter

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I don’t drink this much when I’m actually out hiking or climbing, but my sustained intensity level is a lot lower then than my in-home work outs.  

Hats off to you Kai, I don’t think I could ever muster that kind of intensity at home, but I think we are training with a similar philosophy. A very intense workout at a level much higher than what will actually take place in the field. Peter

Response:

I drink as much as FIVE liters of water in an hour of exercise on my stair stepper  (Heart rate between 155-175 for 60 minutes for 60 minutes.) Maybe you need a new measuring cup.  Your current one seems to be inaccurate.  I think I’d puke if I tried to drink that much during heavy excercise. Ryan

You are right, my measurements are off a bit.  I took some measurements last night.   The water bottles I drink out of are .6 liters not one full liter.  Last night, I worked out for 75 minutes. I drank five full bottles of water.  That is 3 liters.    That is average for me.  Some times when I work out at a higher intensity, I drink even more.  I often drink six bottles in an hour when I’m doing my one hour high intensity work out.  That is  3.6 liters in one hour. I often consume a little bit of energy gel too.  I don’t get sick, I don’t puke, but I do sweat a lot.  I’ve been doing this for several years now.  It works for me.   I don’t drink this much when I’m actually out hiking or climbing, but my sustained intensity level is a lot lower then than my in-home work outs.   Kai   http://www.dimensional.com/~kai/

Response:

Pete, Normally I would say no, but it sounds like a pretty intense 65 minute activity. That, and when I wrote the reply it was 93 here.  In that kind of temperatures you need that kind of water.  Of course if that does not work I would think about medical attention… Chris

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes,  drink more water!!  ONe liter before and some aftwards does not cut it.  Drink one liter an hour for about a day before and continuously through the activity.  Then see how you feel. Up ~40 mins up at the max I can push it to on that day, Heart    ^^^^^^^ Rate never below 150 and topping at ~170. Effort is very hard. Back ~25 mins down, Down Jogging, rock hopping down the trail. — Pete Hickey               |                         |     WELLS Inc. University of Ottawa      |                         |    time machines Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 562-5800×1008    |     since 2003.

Response:

I drink as much as FIVE liters of water in an hour of exercise on my stair stepper  (Heart rate between 155-175 for 60 minutes for 60 minutes.)

Maybe you need a new measuring cup.  Your current one seems to be inaccurate.  I think I’d puke if I tried to drink that much during heavy excercise. Ryan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Note that this is training and the circuit only takes 1 hour. I am drinking 1 litre immediately beforehand, .5 to 1 litre on the trail and lots afterward. Also I have plenty of water with me. That is the main component of the weight is about 17Liters or a little over 4 gallons. I drink as much as FIVE liters of water in an hour of exercise on my stair stepper  (Heart rate between 155-175 for 60 minutes for 60 minutes.) If I drank only 1 liter of water in a 1 hour work-out I know that I would get seriously dehydrated.  When I don’t drink enough water, my symptoms are very similar to those you describe. Drink a minimum of 4 liters over the space of the hour-long work out. I bet you will feel much better.

  Your stomach can usually only drain one liter an hour.   You are never going to find ANY exercise physiologists telling you to drink four liters in an hour while exercising.

Response:

I drink as much as FIVE liters of water in an hour of exercise on my stair stepper  (Heart rate between 155-175 for 60 minutes for 60 minutes.)  

5 liters in an hour! That must be some kind of record.There must also be a pool of sweat surrounding the machine when you are done.   That would drastically drop the intensity of my workout since I would be drinking and searching for bushes all the time. If I drank only 1 liter of water in a 1 hour work-out I know that I would get seriously dehydrated.  When I don’t drink enough water, my symptoms are very similar to those you describe.       Drink a minimum of 4 liters over the space of the hour-long work out. I bet you will feel much better.  

I really don’t think I can drink that much. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Yes,  drink more water!!  ONe liter before and some aftwards does not cut it.  Drink one liter an hour for about a day before and continuously through the activity.  Then see how you feel.

Up ~40 mins up at the max I can push it to on that day, Heart    ^^^^^^^ Rate never below 150 and topping at ~170. Effort is very hard. Back ~25 mins down, Down Jogging, rock hopping down the trail.

— Pete Hickey               |                         |     WELLS Inc. University of Ottawa      |                         |    time machines Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 562-5800×1008    |     since 2003.

Response:

: I have been doing some intense conditioning hikes on the : weekend (every weekend for months) and I still feel ill : afterwards (hours afterward). Its a delayed reaction, I : usually feel fine immediately afterwards, but later there is : a feeling of general malaise, eyes hurt, slight nausea. I : don’t generally feel 100% until after a good nights sleep. : The first time I did this I felt like crap for 2 days. : The hike has rocky terrain and trends upward with steep : and less steep sections. I weigh 135lbs and I am carrying : 55lbs. … : Anyone have a theory why I feel like crap after the outdoor : hike and not the indoor one? Well… one obvious difference is that you’ve got 4 short breaks during your indoor workout when you’re riding the elevator.  Maybe you’re just pushing your body too hard for too long on the outdoor hike. It seems unlikely that you’re getting dehydrated during such a short workout, but you might want to try drinking more just to see if it makes a difference.  Drink a LOT for a day or so before hand, and bring extra water with you.  Since you always feel like crap after this workout, it should be easy to test different things. I guess I’d wonder why you’re doing this in the first place, though. It sounds like a workout designed to be maximally unpleasant and hard on your body (and not just strength-hard, also bad for your joints). It seems that there would be better/safer workouts for strength, and it also sounds rather short for building up endurance. — Dave

Response:

I have been doing some intense conditioning hikes on the weekend (every weekend for months) and I still feel ill afterwards (hours afterward). Its a delayed reaction, I usually feel fine immediately afterwards, but later there is a feeling of general malaise, eyes hurt, slight nausea. I don’t generally feel 100% until after a good nights sleep. The first time I did this I felt like crap for 2 days.

[snip] couldn’t hurt to consult a doctor about your problem. the only time i have heard of similar symptoms was when i took a good friend skiing one very sunny winter day. he was not the outdoor type and actually didn’t get outside that much. i guess all of that UV radiation reflecting everywhere caused a ’sunburn’ type of reaction in his eyes. he had almost the same symptoms as you describe. maybe just too much sunshine that you are not used to? a good pair of sunglasses might just be a solution. opinions are my .

Response:

First of all, congratulations on being able to perform at that level and still be alive the next day. You may be having classic hyperglycemic reactions.  Not because you are hypergly, but because your body is burning up what little you have available.  You probably have low body fat to weight ratio to start with.  Nothing left to use – so body is telling you – politely so far – to cut it out.  It probably is using muscle tissue instead of stored fat to recover. Don’t know why it would be different from indoor training unless you are having a problem with allergies.  You are filtering a lot of outside dust and junk with all that breathing. But you should be getting a lot of protein about every 3 hours ( 3oz meat/chicken/tuna/cottage cheeze, etc) along with plenty of carbs. During your training period, I would guess that you should be getting about  1.0 to 1.5 grams protein per pound body weight every 24 hours spaced out over 6 meals during the day time.  300-400 calories per meal.  More calories if you are feeling busted at the end of a training period/day.  Lots of eating plans available at gyms and training mags that include low fat/sugar diets with plenty of protein and complex carbs (and veggies and fruits).  The trick is to spread it out all day long – a big pain in the butt time wise.  And you will have a heck of time trying to eat it all. What you eat on Monday is used to build and recover on Tuesday.  It takes the body a few days to recover and rebuild so the energy and material should be there when it needs it.  Not just a big meal in morning and night. The kind of extreme training you are doing is equivalent to olympic training or heavy duty weight lifting (you too should be doing a full set of weights as cross training too) and that means you should be eating commensurately. Watch out that you don’t strip a gear with that heartbeat. 170 is not bad (if you are less than 45) for what you are doing, but anything over that heartbeat/age and you might want to set your goals a bit lower and take longer gettting there.

Response:

Yes,  drink more water!!  ONe liter before and some aftwards does not cut it.  Drink one liter an hour for about a day before and continuously through the activity.  Then see how you feel. Chris

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been doing some intense conditioning hikes on the weekend (every weekend for months) and I still feel ill afterwards (hours afterward). Its a delayed reaction, I usually feel fine immediately afterwards, but later there is a feeling of general malaise, eyes hurt, slight nausea. I don’t generally feel 100% until after a good nights sleep. The first time I did this I felt like crap for 2 days. The hike has rocky terrain and trends upward with steep and less steep sections. I weigh 135lbs and I am carrying 55lbs. Up ~40 mins up at the max I can push it to on that day, Heart Rate never below 150 and topping at ~170. Effort is very hard. Back ~25 mins down, Down Jogging, rock hopping down the trail. HR 130-140 Several times I have mid-week done some indoor training going up a total of over a 100 floors (22 floors 5 times) of stairs with thesame 55 lbs with extra motivation provided by friends. We only hike up and take elevator down. HR usually peaks around 175. I don’t feel ill after. I have read a lot about conditioning and fitness and I can’t think of anything that fits. Dehydration is unlikely since I drink over 1 liter before hitting the trail and about .5 liters on the trail and probably another liter afterwards. Anyone have a theory why I feel like crap after the outdoor hike and not the indoor one? Peter

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