Helicobacter pylorii

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Question:

I’m skeptical that you’ll get any effect, but let me know. It is possible to be infected with H. pylori and have low stomach acid if you are incapable of producing same for other reasons. But the H. pylori surely has nothing to do with this. Remember, please, that the long noted association between high acid production rate and duodenal ulcer now appears to be mostly a causal connection between acid production rate and H. pylori infection. H. pylori doesn’t give you ulcers by chewing on you with its little teeth. It gives them to you by giving you too much acid. No acid, no ulcer. The bacterium is the ultimate cause, but acid is the proximate cause. The same, BTW, is also true of tooth cavities (caries).

I have seen several articles on Medline that indicate that H. pylori can cause low stomach acid. One follows: Title Helicobacter pylod and gastric acid: biological and therapeutic implications Author McGowan CC; Cover TL; Blaser MJ Address Division of Infectious Diseases, Department of Medicine, Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, Nashville, Tennessee, USA. Source Gastroenterology, 110: 3,1996 Mar, 926-38 Abstract Helicobacter pylori is highly adapted to its unusual ecological niche in the human stomach. Urease activity permits H. pylori survival at a pH of <4 in vitro and is required for the organism to colonize in animal models. However, urease does not play an important role in the survival of the organism in a pH range between 4 and 7. Other mechanisms of pH homeostasis remain poorly understood, but preliminary studies indicate that novel proteins are produced when H.pylori cells are shifted from pH 7 to 3, and the gene encoding a P-type adenosine triphosphatase that may catalyze NH4+/H+ exchange across the cytoplasmic membrane has been cloned. Mechanisms of pH homeostasis in other enteric bacteria are reviewed and provide insight into additional pathways that may be used by H. pylori. An important adaptation of H. pylori to the gastric environment may be its ability to alter gastric acid secretion. Acute infection is associated with transient hypochlorhydria, whereas chronic infection is associated with hypergastrinemia and decreased somatostatin levels. Thus, the survival of H. pylori in the gastric environment may be attributed to both the development of specialized intrinsic defenses and the organism’s ability to induce physiological alterations in the host environment. — Los Altos Hills California fax 415 941-3488

Response:

S The post on the breath test was quite good. One thing left out is S that helicobacter pylori cannot survive a low pH (highly acidic) S environment. Use of antacids provides and excellent growth S environment for h. pylori; use of acid secretion stimulants such S as Betaine HCl provides a very poor environment for survival of S h. pylori. One does not have to utilize antibiotic therapy except S in very deep-seated h. pylori infections. S –Noel S S An incredibly dumb post above. H pylori not only survives high acid S environments very well, but in fact acid environments are the one thing S it thrives in (which is probably why it tries to create acid in S stomachs it infects). On the contrary, LOW acid or basic environments S are not good for H. pylori, and treatments for lowering acid production S are a part of all successful H. pylori treatments, including those S which use antibiotics. S Steve Harris, M.D. — Steve is still mixed up about stomach acid. Noel is right on this one. H.Pylori thrives in a LOW-acid environment, that’s why many carriers are asymptomatic as long as they produce adequate amounts of stomach acid. If levels drop (or pH rises) as a result of mineral imbalances, old age, or other causes, H.Pylori frequently becomes active and may impair or destroy the stomach’s protective mucous membranes, increasing the risk for pathology, including ulcers. I’ve treated well over a thousand patients with acid-RAISING therapy, long before H.Pylori became a fashionable "cause" for stomach complaints. Using an acid-LOWERING approach for H.Pylori has no curative effect whatsoever (unless an ulcer has already developed), but just raises the risk factor for all sorts of other diseases, including various cancers. — * Ron Roth

Response:

Hi, all– Topic for today: Helicobacter pylorii 1.

What are natural treatments for this condition (instead of the triple treatment of amoxycillin/flagyl/bismuth)? Can’t answer that. 2. What is the definitive test for the presence of H. pylorii? Culture from a biopsy, done using a gastroscope. If a body tests positive for the antibodies, does this mean there are H. pylorii present? Or does it just mean that sometime in the past there was contact with this bacteria? How long do the antibodies persist? Not very long, as they drop a few months after successful treatment. So presense of antibodies probably indicates present infection in most people. However, the real question is: should you treat every present infection? Most doctors don’t, if there are no symptoms. After all, up to 50% of older people have the bug, and most have no symptoms. Thinking may change on the matter of treatment, of course. For one thing, there is the suspicion, backed up by some evidence, that H. pylori is a player in many cases of gastric carcinoma. Question: Could you prevent this disease entirely (or even mostly) by treating *everybody* who has H. pylori, in somewhat the same way you could doubtless prevent most colon carcinoma by removing everybody’s polyps regularly? Answer: nobody knows. Maybe. That research has yet to be done. It screams for a study, but that

would be a very long and costly study. Which, of course, is why it hasn’t been done. Killing H. pylori is expensive ($200 or so), and the treatment is not entirely benign. And gastric cancer is relatively rare compared with H. pylori infection. You’d have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and give a lot of people a lot of diarrhea, just to prevent one gastric cancer case. Maybe. What we really need is an H. pylori *vaccine.* Unfortunately, the bug, like the syphilis organism, may not ever cooperate. Steve Harris, M.D I developed gastric lymphoma, presumably from H. Pylori, which I had. I went thru the usual antibiotic treatment, which was horrible, but the lymphoma was too far advanced, and I had half my stomach removed, and then chemo. I am doing fine, but H. pylori is nothing to ignore. Recently I learned that doctors in New Zealand have been treating patients with H. pylori with 4 tablespoons of honey a day. This sounds almost unbelievable, but they have found that honey is powerfully anti-bacterial, and have traced its action, I believe, to its ability to generate hydrogen peroxide. They are doing a lot a`of followup research. I recounted this story to the departmental secretary, who has suffered ulcers for many years, tested positive for H. pylori, and went thru the antibiotic trip which didn’t work at all for her. She took 6 T. of honey a day for 1 month and the bacteria had decreased by 80%. She just recently (after about 4 months) went in for a final test, and the H. pylori was completely gone. Her physician is amazed. It strikes me that the medical community, especially gastroenterologists, should pay attention.

Response:

An incredibly dumb post above. H pylori not only survives high acid environments very well, but in fact acid environments are the one thing it thrives in (which is probably why it tries to create acid in stomachs it infects). On the contrary, LOW acid or basic environments are not good for H. pylori, and treatments for lowering acid production are a part of all successful H. pylori treatments, including those which use antibiotics. Steve Harris, M.D.

I have had the blood test for H. pylori and the results were quite high (82%). I have also had the Heidelberg stomach acid test and found I produce very little. I have responded very favorably to Thorne’s H. pylori treatment (SF734) and betaine HCL supplementation. I think that the relation between H. pylori and acid is somewhat more complicated than Dr. Harris thinks. My own guess is that H. pylori was responsible for my loss of stomach acid, and I am hopeful that with the elimination of this organism, my stomach acid production will improve. I do not think we have the whole picture on H.pylori and acid. Maybe someone here has a more complete understanding of this complex relationship. — Los Altos Hills California fax 415 941-3488

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An incredibly dumb post above. H pylori not only survives high acid environments very well, but in fact acid environments are the one thing it thrives in (which is probably why it tries to create acid in stomachs it infects). On the contrary, LOW acid or basic environments are not good for H. pylori, and treatments for lowering acid production are a part of all successful H. pylori treatments, including those which use antibiotics. Steve Harris, M.D. I have had the blood test for H. pylori and the results were quite high (82%). I have also had the Heidelberg stomach acid test and found I produce very little. I have responded very favorably to Thorne’s H. pylori treatment (SF734) and betaine HCL supplementation. I think that the relation between H. pylori and acid is somewhat more complicated than Dr. Harris thinks. My own guess is that H. pylori was responsible for my loss of stomach acid, and I am hopeful that with the elimination of this organism, my stomach acid production will improve. I do not think we have the whole picture on H.pylori and acid. Maybe someone here has a more complete understanding of this complex relationship. — Los Altos Hills California fax 415 941-3488

Response:

Hi, all– Topic for today: Helicobacter pylorii 1. What are natural treatments for this condition (instead of the triple treatment of amoxycillin/flagyl/bismuth)? 2. What is the definitive test for the presence of H. pylorii? If a body tests positive for the antibodies, does this mean there are H. pylorii present? Or does it just mean that sometime in the past there was contact with this bacteria? How long do the antibodies persist? Thanks very much. Katherine "Impossible is a word in the fool’s dictionary."

Response:

Hi, all– Topic for today: Helicobacter pylorii 1. What are natural treatments for this condition (instead of the

triple treatment of amoxycillin/flagyl/bismuth)? Can’t answer that. 2. What is the definitive test for the presence of H. pylorii?

Culture from a biopsy, done using a gastroscope. If a body tests positive for the antibodies, does this mean there are H. pylorii present? Or does it just mean that sometime in the past there was

contact with this bacteria? How long do the antibodies persist? Not very long, as they drop a few months after successful treatment. So presense of antibodies probably indicates present infection in most people. However, the real question is: should you treat every present infection? Most doctors don’t, if there are no symptoms. After all, up to 50% of older people have the bug, and most have no symptoms. Thinking may change on the matter of treatment, of course. For one thing, there is the suspicion, backed up by some evidence, that H. pylori is a player in many cases of gastric carcinoma. Question: Could you prevent this disease entirely (or even mostly) by treating *everybody* who has H. pylori, in somewhat the same way you could doubtless prevent most colon carcinoma by removing everybody’s polyps regularly? Answer: nobody knows. Maybe. That research has yet to be done. It screams for a study, but that would be a very long and costly study. Which, of course, is why it hasn’t been done. Killing H. pylori is expensive ($200 or so), and the treatment is not entirely benign. And gastric cancer is relatively rare compared with H. pylori infection. You’d have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and give a lot of people a lot of diarrhea, just to prevent one gastric cancer case. Maybe. What we really need is an H. pylori *vaccine.* Unfortunately, the bug, like the syphilis organism, may not ever cooperate. Steve Harris, M.D.

Response:

Taylor) writes:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -says… Hi, all– Topic for today: Helicobacter pylorii 1. What are natural treatments for this condition (instead of the triple treatment of amoxycillin/flagyl/bismuth)? 2. What is the definitive test for the presence of H. pylorii? If a body tests positive for the antibodies, does this mean there are H. pylorii present? Or does it just mean that sometime in the past there was contact with this bacteria? How long do the antibodies persist? Thanks very much. Katherine "Impossible is a word in the fool’s dictionary." The post on the breath test was quite good. One thing left out is that helicobacter pylori cannot survive a low pH (highly acidic) environment. Use of antacids provides and excellent growth environment for h. pylori; use of acid secretion stimulants such as Betaine HCl provides a very poor environment for survival of h. pylori. One does not have to utilize antibiotic therapy except in very deep-seated h. pylori infections. –Noel

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… Hi, all– Topic for today: Helicobacter pylorii 1. What are natural treatments for this condition (instead of the triple treatment of amoxycillin/flagyl/bismuth)? 2. What is the definitive test for the presence of H. pylorii? If a body tests positive for the antibodies, does this mean there are H. pylorii present? Or does it just mean that sometime in the past there was contact with this bacteria? How long do the antibodies persist? Thanks very much. Katherine "Impossible is a word in the fool’s dictionary."

The post on the breath test was quite good. One thing left out is that helicobacter pylori cannot survive a low pH (highly acidic) environment. Use of antacids provides and excellent growth environment for h. pylori; use of acid secretion stimulants such as Betaine HCl provides a very poor environment for survival of h. pylori. One does not have to utilize antibiotic therapy except in very deep-seated h. pylori infections. –Noel

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, all– Topic for today: Helicobacter pylorii 1. What are natural treatments for this condition (instead of the triple treatment of amoxycillin/flagyl/bismuth)? 2. What is the definitive test for the presence of H. pylorii? If a body tests positive for the antibodies, does this mean there are H. pylorii present? Or does it just mean that sometime in the past there was contact with this bacteria? How long do the antibodies persist? Thanks very much. Katherine "Impossible is a word in the fool’s dictionary."

– says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, all– Topic for today: Helicobacter pylorii 1. What are natural treatments for this condition (instead of the triple treatment of amoxycillin/flagyl/bismuth)? 2. What is the definitive test for the presence of H. pylorii? If a body tests positive for the antibodies, does this mean there are H. pylorii present? Or does it just mean that sometime in the past there was contact with this bacteria? How long do the antibodies persist? Thanks very much. Katherine "Impossible is a word in the fool’s dictionary."

– A new test has been approved by the FDA in September. The test is based on breath analysis. Called the Meretek UBT Breath Test. According to a New York Times News Service article, by Denise Grady, "Patients will be able to take the test in a doctor’s office, receive results within a day or two and, if the bacteria are present, take a combination of antibiotics for two weeks to get rid of the infection and let the ulcer heal." The article continues: "Although a blood test can pick up evidence of H.pylori infection, it cannot distinguish a past infection from an active one…." "H.pylori is a common bacterium, thought to infect the stomachs of 35 percent of all American adults, with the likelihood of increasing with age. But only about 10 percent of Americans ever develop peptic ulcers, and scientists do not know why the organisms apparently cause illness only in some people. "The bacteria travel from one person to the next by the fecal-oral route, which generally means they are spread by unwashed hands. "…The test depends on the unusual ability H.pylori has of rapidly breaking down urea, a naturally occurring substance." "Patients drink a nonradioactive solution of urea that has been manufactured to contain carbon atoms that are heavier than normal. If H.pylori is present in their stomachs, the organism will quickly break down the urea, and the heavy carbon atoms can be detected in the carbon dioxide that the patients exhale. "More information is available by calling Meretek at 1-888-637-3835." Also see this site: http://www.europa-uk.com/13C-UBT.html This from The Oregonian: "Researchers at Providence Portland Medical Center have developed their own breath test for use in a research project that will determine how to treat H.pylori infection more effectively. "They are testing two treatment regimens that might reduce dramatically the length of treatment and number of pills a person would have to take to eliminate the infection. "The Providence test involves drinking a radioactively labled compound that results in a specific reaction in the stomach. Testing the breath reveals the presence of H.pylori. The researchers do not plan to seek approval from the Food and Drug Administration to market the test…."[Oregonian, Science and Health, October 3, 1996] Follows an early report from Reuters on this: H. Pylori Breath Test Shows Promise HOUSTON, Apr 10 (Reuters) – A breath test for the bacterium reported to cause peptic ulcer disease shows significant promise as a diagnostic tool, according to Dr.David Graham at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. In a study of 465 patients at 75 treatment centers, the 13C urea breath test detectedthe Helicobacter pylori bacterium with a 95% accuracy. Dr. Graham reported his findings in the April issue of the American Journal of Gastroenterology. "Although the trial was performed in busy outpatient, tertiary, secondary and primary care settings, where you might expect some failures to occur, the test’s performance was still outstanding," Dr. Graham said. The multicenter study was sponsored in part by Meretek Inc., which developed the breath test. Dr. Graham said the breath test can be used independently or in conjunction with endoscopy. "If the patient has already undergone treatment for an ulcer diagnosed by endoscopy, this should be an efficient way to confirm whether the infection has been cured," he said. Dr. Graham believes that the 13C urea breath test for H. pylori complements emerging antibiotic therapies that are directed at eradicating the infection in patients with gastric and duodenal ulcers. Am J Gastro 1996;91:690-694. ——- I might add that the blood test mentioned may give false information because the patient’s system somehow overcame the active parasite and the antigen-antibody titres won’t necessarily indicate none are currently active. But people do get rid of them without treatment. This elimination is not necessarily due to use of antibiotics, but the conditions allowing for non-treatment elimination of H.pylori are not understood. I understand that diluted fig sap containing ficin, can disolve intestinal parasites which resist the proteolytic enzymes secreted into the small intestine. Not sure this is relevent in the stomach. Also, the Providence study was included because it is possible to confuse the two tests. 13C UBT does not rely on radioactive compounds. Roger Cathey, Director Robert Cathey Research Source http://www.europa.com/~rsc/ Roger Cathey, Director Robert Cathey Research Source 113 SE 61st Avenue Portland, Oregon 97215 http://www.europa.com/~rsc/

Response:

S.B. Harris wrpte "…after all, up to 50% os older people have the bug, and most have no symptoms" Question. Have all these people been tested? Nope! Is this not sufficient evidence to convince one that H.Pylorii may be a "symptom" but not a causative agent? Ah…the dreams and myths of the allopaths. Dr. C. http://www.galaxymall.com/market/chlc.html The only Orthopathic medical site on the web!

Response:

S.B. Harris wrpte "…after all, up to 50% os older people have the

bug, and most have no symptoms" Question. Have all these people been tested? Nope!

Have all WHAT people been tested? Has every older person been tested? No. But when large numbers of persons ARE tested, as a screen, one finds that as you get to ages 65 and up, the prevalence of H. pylori approaches 50%. Since these studies are done on random samples, they should reflect the prevalence in the general population. This is just a standard sampling problem in statistics. Is this not sufficient evidence to convince one that H.Pylorii may be a "symptom" but not a causative agent? Ah…the dreams and myths of the allopaths.

You’re not making much sense. H. pylori is not a symptom, and nobody said it was. The evidence that it is a causal organism for ulcers rests on epidemiology (90% of ulcer patients have it), and also on direct intervention (when H. pylori is killed, ulcers recur much less often.) These are not "dreams and myths of allopaths", these are facts. I’ve even seen "allopaths" (a derogatory word make up by homeopaths, BTW) critisized by other health professions because standard medicine missed H. pylori as a cause of ulcers for so many years. Well, H. pylori wasn’t discovered by alternative medicine, either. The alternative types should make up their minds about how important it is. Steve Harris, M.D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dr. C. http://www.galaxymall.com/market/chlc.html The only Orthopathic medical site on the web!

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