Talk Cancer

Question:

The following problems warrant concern when Roundup is considered for use:

Thank you very much for taking the time to post this information.  We are always in the position of making decisions about pesticides based on information only from the manufacturer.  It is very useful to have a more complete picture.  Hopefully this kind of information will make us all think an extra time or two before reaching for the nearest can or bottle, and more careful if and when we do make the decision to use something.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         -Sue Sanders

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Ken, Thanks for posting all the info – I’ve always been wary of any product that kills so "efficiently".  Do you have any suggestions regarding any products that would be environmentally friendly to use?  We’ve always practiced organic gardening (i.e. mulching, etc), but there are certain times (esp. with grass) that "hand weeding" seems to turn into a 24 hr. job! Any advice/suggestions would be welcome – thanks again!

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Next time try boiling water

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Put it in my yard and it is gauranteed to die! Mine does Glenn —         ooo ooooooooo    o                         "My ship finally came in!"    0       0                       I was wating at the train station

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So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? If not, is there a good alternative?

I use Roundup a couple of times a year, to get rid of grass growing in amongst the pebbles on my drive.  I have been informed by a landscape gardener that it is environmentally safe also safe to use around the dog.  Obviously, I make sure that the dog is not loose around the "wet" area until about 24 hours after use.  I have been using it for some years now quite happily.  It is a very good product although very expensive! Ruth D.

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So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? If not, is there a good alternative?

I use Roundup a couple of times a year, to get rid of grass growing in amongst the pebbles on my drive.  I have been informed by a landscape gardener that it is environmentally safe also safe to use around the dog.  Obviously, I make sure that the dog is not loose around the "wet" area until about 24 hours after use.  I have been using it for some years now quite happily.  It is a very good product although very expensive! Ruth D.

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You of course will read all labels carefully Roundup has an average half life of only 24 hours, depending on temperature and light. And it is no doubt the most widely used herbicide. But I believe environmentaly Safe is being used as a relative term here. you can minimize the effects on the environment by maximizing the effects of the chemical. Us round up in the morning after the dew is off, on a clear sunny dy above 60 deg, in little to no surface wind. Use a flat spray tip, not an atomizer. (The reverse is true for Pesticides). Spray during the plants growth season, and I use a sticjer to help maximize the effect. An alternative is to hire a qualified Landscape proffesional with a spray license, and pick his brain every time he’s in your yard. The reason I say this is that every yard is it’s own little ecosystem, and it takes an awfull lot of education to realy know what your doing, an experienced gardener can save you a lot of time and money in the long run by teaching maintenance specific to your yard.

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So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? If not, is there a good alternative?

The following is from a Monsanto flyer -Microbes break down the active ingredient of roundup in the soil. note: active ingredient<<<<<<<<

-Roundup wont leach into the soil…..because it binds tightly to soil particles -Roundup does not give off fumes or odours. -Roundup works by stopping the formulation of certain amino acids (protein building blocks) found only in plants. Roundup is still readily absorbed thru the skin, and

excreted thru the urine. If you like roundup you will say it causes no problems on the way, if you dont like roundup this will concern you<<<<<<<<< -Roundup is safe to humans, pets and wildlife when used as directed. The following problems warrant concern when Roundup is considered for use:  1. PERSISTENCE.  Although the claim is often made that Roundup is inactivated rapidly in soil, it is more accurate to say that it is usually absorbed to soil components.  A sandy loam treated with glyphosate at recommended application rates (e.g., 2, 5, and 10 ug/g soil) was found to drastically reduce nitrogen fixation, growth, and nodulation of subterranean clover/Rhizobium trifolium/ planted 120 days after glyphosate treatment. Glyphosate clearly remains active in soils that do not adsorb it readily. Damage to vine maple and bigleaf maple was found to increase during the second year following treatment with glyphosate, indicating that glyphosate persists for extended periods in plants. 2. PHYTOTOXICITY.  Because glyphosate is a nonselective herbicide, any desired vegetation must be completely protected from glyphosate drive, mist, or drip.  As Monsanto notes in its Rounup label guide, "…minute quantities of this herbicide can cause severe damage or destruction to the crop, plants, or other areas on which treatment was not intended." 3. TOXICITY OF ‘INERT’ INGREDIENTS. There is no way of knowing what you are applying when you use roundup. According to the 1994 Solaris Product Label guide published by Monsanto available at 1-800-225-2883, its free, page 150 Round up weed and grass killer is 99.04% Inert ingredients. For a complete rundown on what that 99.04% of the product could be get: The Secret Hazards of Pesticides: Inert Ingredients. It is available for free from the New York State Department of Law. 1-518-474-5481 4. TESTING. [The article explains that testing on glyphosate by itself is inadequate since the inert ingredients are very important to making Roundup work.  Most test results are "unpublished and developed by Monsanto or laboratories hired by Monsanto."   Other points are made about lack of cancer testing and links to "human damage" including "conjunctivitis (inflammation oft he eyelid and eyeball mucous membrane), dermatitis (inflammation of the skin), and severe flu-like symptoms following exposure to glyphosate.  Of 143 pesticides reported for causing human illness in California in 1986, glyphosate was fourth in the number of incidents reported."  No further details on this statistic are given.   A "Roundup Information Packet" containing a series of articles on Roundup is available for $10.50 postpaid from NCAP; P.O. Box 1393; Eugene OR 97440.  A file of these and additional glyphsate/Roundup articles is maintained at NCAP; these can be copied at 10 cents/page. From "Roundup, Vision, POEA, and 1,4-Dioxane: Why Full Formulations Are the Problem." Written by Mary O'Brien--a staff scientist for NCAP.  Vol. 9, No. 4 of the Journal of Pesticide Reform. When a letter by four Japanese emergency medicine professionals appeared in the February 6, 1988 issue of the American medical journal, The Lancet, a Washington toxicology consultant, David Monroe, took note.  The Japanese authors were noting that an "inert ingredient" in the herbicide Roundup (rather than the identified "active" ingredient, glyphosate) accounts for the acute toxicity they had found in patients poisoned (some fatally) by Roundup (JPR 8(1):30).  Symptoms included gastrointestinal ("GI" -ed) pain and vomiting, swelling of the lungs and pneumonia, reduction of blood pressure, clouding of consciousness, and red blood cell destruction. The so-called "inert ingredient," polyoxyethyleneamine (POEA), actually refers to a family of chemicals.  It is added to Roundup and Vision herbicide formulations  as a surfactant, an ingredient that will help evenly spread the active ingredient, glyphosate, on target plants. The Japanese researchers noted that the acute lethal dose of POEA is less than one-third (i.e., POEA is three times as toxic) that of Roundup, and that POEA belongs to a class of surfactants that have been reported to cause adverse GI and central nervous system effects and damage to red blood cells. As POEA does not appear on the Roundup label (supposedly protected, as an inert, from public disclosure under the U.S. pesticide law...), Monroe first learned of its presence in Roundup through the Lancet letter.   Monroe recalled a U.S. EPA memorandum that discussed the presence of 1,4-dioxane in two polyalkoxylated polyamine products ... manufactured by the Henkel Corporation.  Knowing that POEA is a polyalkoxylated amine, Monroe suspected that 1,4-dioxane might be present as a contaminant of POEA.   [ the article now describes the side effects of 1,4-dioxane, which include liver and kidney damage, and cancer in laboratory animals. "The liver and kidney damage can occur regardless of the route of 1,4-dioxane exposure   (inhalation, oral ingestion, and/or skin application)."   This section  concludes with this statement: 'The International Agency for Research on   Cancer indicates that evidence is "sufficient" to know that 1,4-dioxane  causes cancer in animals and the U.S EPA regards 1,4-dioxane as a probable human carcinogen.'     Researchers in British Columbia went on to test Vision (Canada's version of Roundup) checking for 1,4-dioxane contamination.  From a 250ml sample, the  CANTEST lab detected 350 parts per million 1,4-dioxane using a purge and trap method.  That level is equivalent to .35 percent.   now quoting again from the article: ] A 1982 EPA memo … also discussed 1,4-dioxane as being present in dichloroethyl ether.  The 1982 EPA memo … had been prompted by concern that 1,4-dioxane had been found in dichloroethyl ether at 0.42 percent and 0.55 percent.  Under "comments/recommendations" in the memo, the EPA noted that the manufacturer of the contaminated dichloroethyl ether "reported that its employees and customers were being notified of the presence of 1,4-dioxane in dichloroethyl ether.  In addition, the company reported that its current safety precautions include ‘body-protective clothing and boots, eye protection, and monitoring of air levels of dichloroethyl ether.’" Users of Roundup and Vision are not informed that the formulation contains either POEA or 1,4-dioxane.  Roundup is widely used by home owners wearing no particular protective clothing, and the label merely states, "Avoid contact with eyes, skin, and clothing because of possible (eye and skin) irritation." The presence of 1,4-dioxane in Vision (and presumably in Roundup) is a classic example of the following:  1. Full formulations, "inert" ingredients, and contaminants, not merely the so-called "active" ingredient, can cause cancer and other adverse chronic effects; their exemption from testing for chronic toxicity is indefensible.    2. The current classification by the EPA of POEA as a "List 3" inert ingredient  ("inert of unknown toxicity"), subject neither to listing on the label nor toxicological testing requirements, is indefensible.   3. Estimating the toxicity of glyphosate alone is meaningless when a full formulation (e.g., Roundup, Vision) containing POEA, 1,4-dioxane, and other unlisted ingredients and contaminants is the mixture to which people and the environment will be exposed. What you don’t know can hurt you. — Ken Toews          |    who says of an animal or plant: Nepean Ontario     |    "What good is it" Canada             |                           Aldo Leopold

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: So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? : If not, is there a good alternative?         Not sure what misc.consumers.house is about so I’ll assume that this is a legitimate newsgroup for this responce.  Anyways.           I’d say no.  And I’d say that the only good alternative is hauling it out by hand.  But then I’d rather not have chemicals used.  If you are using it in an area that you don’t mind getting sterile for a while then go right ahead.  Otherwise (if you are making a garden) I’d say dig it up by hand.  Do NOT till grass in.  Many weeds CAN be tilled in but grass when you break the roots grows like mad.  If you are talking about the odd patch of grass in a garden just dig it up.  You won’t ever get rid of all your weeds no matter what you do and it’s always best not to use chemicals.                                                         Jason Rasku —– Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (604) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (604) 362-9668. Nifty quote should go here… — —– Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (604) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (604) 362-9668.

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When we remove grass, we’ve just rented a sod cutter.  No muss, no fuss, (or very little) and we give away the grass to folks who want to fill in a spot or two.  Sod cutters are cheap to rent, and they even have gas powered ones for large jobs.

: So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? : : If not, is there a good alternative? : :    Heavy black plastic staked down over the grass area will kill :    grass including roots. It might take a couple weeks or so. Once :    dead, till it under and off you go. :    Personally, I won’t use Roundup or similar anywhere near my lawn :    anymore. Last year we killed off weeds growing in our (stonedust) :    driveway… over the next day or two it ended up being tracked :    across the lawn on our shoes and on the hose… trashing the lawn. :    I had a quote on redoing the front lawn last week (for other reasons :    as well as the Roundup accident) and when I sheepishly told the guy :    why we had so much dead grass he said "My crew (pro’s!) have done :    that so often that we no longer use chemical killers except for :    heavy brush and poison ivy". :                                                            - Mac — Robin                 Robin Z. Jones

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: : So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? : : If not, is there a good alternative? :       Not sure what misc.consumers.house is about so I’ll assume that : this is a legitimate newsgroup for this responce.  Anyways.   :       I’d say no.  And I’d say that the only good alternative is : hauling it out by hand.  But then I’d rather not have chemicals used.  If : you are using it in an area that you don’t mind getting sterile for a : while then go right ahead.  Otherwise (if you are making a garden) I’d : say dig it up by hand.  Do NOT till grass in.  Many weeds CAN be tilled : in but grass when you break the roots grows like mad.  If you are talking : about the odd patch of grass in a garden just dig it up.  You won’t ever : get rid of all your weeds no matter what you do and it’s always best not : to use chemicals. I agree with some of the above statements and disagree with others.  First, Roundup does not "sterilize" the ground.  It kills anything green it touches. It does not stay in the ground and provide systemic action.  I know people that have sprayed Roundup, waited for stuff to die, and immediately planted in the same soil without problems.  If you want to sterilize the ground, these types of chemicals are available (Ortho Triox, etc) but these should be used with great care.  They WILL sterilize the ground for a year or more. They are great for keeping weeds out of driveways or patios though. Any time you till the ground, you will stir up all the weed seeds that are already there and they will sprout.  This is just a fact of life.  If you have time, you can till, water, wait and till again to greatly knock down the weeds.  I also agree that tilling in healthy grass is asking for trouble since it will keep growing.  However, tilling in grass that has been killed shouldn’t give any additional troubles except the general weed seed problem. Mike Nickerson

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You can use a sod harvester to remove the grass; but tilling it under will work just fine…

Unless you’ve first killed it with Roundup (no flames please), tilling it under isn’t fine if you want to get rid of all the existing grass.  Some of it will survive and fight its way back through the soil.

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So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? If not, is there a good alternative?

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So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? If not, is there a good alternative?

   Heavy black plastic staked down over the grass area will kill    grass including roots. It might take a couple weeks or so. Once    dead, till it under and off you go.    Personally, I won’t use Roundup or similar anywhere near my lawn    anymore. Last year we killed off weeds growing in our (stonedust)    driveway… over the next day or two it ended up being tracked    across the lawn on our shoes and on the hose… trashing the lawn.    I had a quote on redoing the front lawn last week (for other reasons    as well as the Roundup accident) and when I sheepishly told the guy    why we had so much dead grass he said "My crew (pro’s!) have done    that so often that we no longer use chemical killers except for    heavy brush and poison ivy".                                                            - Mac

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| So what about Roundup….Is it environmentally safe? | | If not, is there a good alternative? | |    Heavy black plastic staked down over the grass area will kill |    grass including roots. It might take a couple weeks or so. Once |    dead, till it under and off you go. |    Don’t know where the original poster is from but the black plastic trick won’t work on bermuda grass.  It’ll grow underneath the plastic, albeit weakly.  I had heavy black plastic sheets, folded double on a 4×20 ft. area for 6 weeks and the grass underneath was still alive and growing.  Fire ants liked it too. — Rich Campbell, USDA zone 7 (near Dallas)                     You mean dig up the soil,                     pull all the weeds, plant                     the seeds, pull some more                     weeds, water the seeds,                     and pull some more weeds?                                    - C.B.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Vasilakis) writes: Hi, We recently dismantled a 12′ diameter above ground pool from our yard and now we want to remove all the grass.  Does anyone have suggestions on the best way to do this?  We read that tilling it is not a good thing. Also, we are looking to purchase some topsoil for our yard.  What are the best resources and prices that people have encountered? The quotes we got were $300 a dump truck full which covers 300 cubic feet.  Another was $20/linear yard. Thanks, Chris

You can use a sod harvester to remove the grass; but tilling it under will work just fine, as well as adding the nutrients from the grass back into the soil.  I have heard of topsoil being sold by the cubic yard, but not a linear yard.  If the truck holds more than 15 cubic yards, it is the better buy. Chris Owens

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Depending on what type of grass it is, Your best of to Kill all of it before doing anything. Grasses that propagate by sending out shoots are just planted by tilling, and those against tilling are only against it because they don’t want to take the xtra steps to do it right. Spray Grass killer (Round-Up). wait 2 weeks and spray again. then rake off what you can and till your seed bed. Add sand, don’t bother with topsoil all your getting is sombody elses dirt with sand in it. so add the sand and save the expense of top soil. (Golf Greens all built almost entirely out of sand) anyway incorporate your amendments grade your sight and prepare your seed bed. Now comes the part that most people don’t do that screws it all up… water it and let the weeds grow. give it about 2 weeks at the end of or before a major weed season. Try to time it so that when your trying to grow grass the big offenders are not active, IE Dandilion. Anyway let the weeds grow and spray them once more, twice if neccisary, Re-reake the top gently and plant your lawn. If can go with the fast growers like Perrenial Rye themn can out down a pre-emergent after about 2 weeks and this will reduce Poa (Annual Bluegrass) Poa likes water everyday, shallow root system and high demand for resources makes this a noxious weed in turf. Worse than Dandilion. Once you have a lwan started, then the real nightmare begins. I have studied Turf here in Oregon at the Local college And turf seed is now Oregons biggest export. I have managed Turf in the Northwest for over 15 years and only now have what I would consider to be a near perfect lawn. And now all my neighbors think I’m crazy. Lets face it, theres a lot to be said for barkdust and evergreens. You should emial me and let me know what part of the country your in and I will be able to more specific about turf grass varieties. There has been a lot of improvments in specialized turf varieties.

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Hi, We recently dismantled a 12′ diameter above ground pool from our yard and now we want to remove all the grass.  Does anyone have suggestions on the best way to do this?  We read that tilling it is not a good thing. Also, we are looking to purchase some topsoil for our yard.  What are the best resources and prices that people have encountered? The quotes we got were $300 a dump truck full which covers 300 cubic feet.  Another was $20/linear yard. Thanks, Chris

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Also, we are looking to purchase some topsoil for our yard.  What are the best resources and prices that people have encountered? The quotes we got were $300 a dump truck full which covers 300 cubic feet.  Another was $20/linear yard.

Here in Rochester, NY screened topsoil (that is it’s been put thru a sieve to filter out debris and chunks) goes for about $18/cubic yard delivered with a five cubic yard minimum.  A very small dumptruck holds about 6 yards – typical ones hold 8-10 yards. Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without. – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – Anything I say may or may not be my opinion, but certainly is not the opinion of my kind and generous Internet-enabling employer.                      (How’s that sound, boss?)

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