Talk Cancer

Question:

As you can tell by all the studies I’ve been posting, I’m very excited about this – imo this line of research is the most hopeful I’ve yet seen – not just for MS but for all autoimmune disorders. Our thoughts *can* exert a measure of control over our immune systems! Chris F  :-) Behavioral conditioning of immunosuppression is possible in humans. FASEB J 2002 Dec;16(14):1869-73 Related Articles, Links   Goebel MU, Trebst AE, Steiner J, Xie YF, Exton MS, Frede S, Canbay AE, Michel MC, Heemann U, Schedlowski M. Department of Medical Psychology, University of Essen, Essen, Germany. Behavioral conditioned immunosuppression has been described in rodents as the most impressive demonstration of brain-to-immune system interaction. To analyze whether behavioral conditioned immunosuppression is possible in humans, healthy subjects in this double-blind, placebo-controlled study were conditioned in four sessions over 3 consecutive days, receiving the immunosuppressive drug cyclosporin A as an unconditioned stimulus paired with a distinctively flavored drink (conditioned stimulus) each 12 h. In the next week, re-exposure to the conditioned stimulus (drink), but now paired with placebo capsules, induced a suppression of immune functions as analyzed by the IL-2 and IFN-gamma mRNA expression, intracellular production, and in vitro release of IL-2 and IFN-gamma, as well as lymphocyte proliferation. These data demonstrate for the first time that immunosuppression can be behaviorally conditioned in humans. Publication Types: Clinical Trial Controlled Clinical Trial PMID: 12468450 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Response:

On 26 Mar 2003 18:21:59 -0800, in alt.support.mult-sclerosis,cmccub…@sympatico.ca (Chris Fincham) wrote: >As you can tell by all the studies I’ve been posting, I’m very excited >about this – imo this line of research is the most hopeful I’ve yet >seen – not just for MS but for all autoimmune disorders.

Disease in general. Did ya note that, in none of the postings was the word "choice"? >Our thoughts *can* exert a measure of control over our immune systems!

Isn’t that what I had been saying all along?  And the response that I’ll often get is something about "So, you are saying that me having MS is *my* fault?" Sheesh. — "Who we are and who we become depends, in part, on whom we love." — "A General Theory Of Love"  Thanks, Mom ______________________________________________________________ Glen Appleby  gl…@armory.com <HTTP://www.armory.com/~glena/>

Response:

I wrote:

"Our thoughts *can* exert a measure of control over our immune systems!" Glen wrote:

"Isn’t that what I had been saying all along?   It’s what holistic health practitiones have been saying since long before you and I were born. And the response that I’ll often get is something about "So, you are saying that me having MS is *my* fault?" Sheesh." If I ever again choose to get angry, that’s the sort of thing I’ll get angry at.  This is scientific research – it’s not personal.  The researchers don’t go into their offices with the thought "I’m gonna’ find a reason to make sick people feel guilty".  They are investigating ways to make us healthier, and that’s a very good thing. This research, imo, is a tremendous gift to everyone who’s ill.  It gives us some *individual control* over even chronic, incurable diseases such as MS.  We can dampen the disease-producing activity in our brains & spinal cords, just by maintaining a positive attitude! Which means (again, imo) that ASMS can also help to dampen the disease-producing activity in the brains & spinal cords of PwMS who come here… Chris F  :-) PS… Cytokine-induced sickness behavior. Brain Behav Immun 2003 Feb;17(1 Suppl):112-8   Kelley KW, Bluthe RM, Dantzer R, Zhou JH, Shen WH, Johnson RW, Broussard SR. Department of Animal Sciences, Laboratory of Immunophysiology, University of Illinois, 207 Edward R. Madigan Laboratory, 1201 West Gregory Drive, 61801, Urbana, IL, USA The behavioral repertoire of humans and animals changes dramatically following infection. Sick individuals have little motivation to eat, are listless, complain of fatigue and malaise, loose interest in social activities and have significant changes in sleep patterns. They display an inability to experience pleasure, have exaggerated responses to pain and fail to concentrate. Proinflammatory cytokines acting in the brain cause sickness behaviors. These nearly universal behavioral changes are a manifestation of a central motivational state that is designed to promote recovery. Exaggerated symptoms of sickness in cancer patients, such as cachexia, can be life-threatening. However, quality of life is often drastically impaired before the cancer becomes totally debilitating. Although basic studies in psychoneuroimmunology have defined proinflammatory cytokines as the central mediators of sickness behavior, a much better understanding of how cytokine and neurotransmitter receptors communicate with each other is needed. Advances that have been made during the past decade should now be extended to clinical studies in an attempt to alleviate sickness symptoms and improve quality of life for cancer patients. PMID: 12615196 [PubMed - in process]

Response:

Hi kids, Ok,  I think I get it,  but if cytokines cause malaise and crummy feelings, how do people debilitated by brain chemistry gain a good healthy attitude? It seems like Catch 22. And can/do you realize the concept sort of begs a "well,  duh!"  kind of response.  Some of us (me) have problems being MarySunshine in the face of this research.   Not arguing,  asking. Lo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> From: cmccub…@sympatico.ca (Chris Fincham) > Organization: http://groups.google.com/ > Newsgroups: alt.support.mult-sclerosis > Date: 27 Mar 2003 04:36:35 -0800 > Subject: Re: Behavioral conditioning of immunosuppression is possible in > humans. > I wrote: > "Our thoughts *can* exert a measure of control over our immune > systems!" > Glen wrote: > "Isn’t that what I had been saying all along? > It’s what holistic health practitiones have been saying since long > before you and I were born. > And the response that I’ll often get is something about "So, you are > saying that > me having MS is *my* fault?" > Sheesh." > If I ever again choose to get angry, that’s the sort of thing I’ll get > angry at.  This is scientific research – it’s not personal.  The > researchers don’t go into their offices with the thought "I’m gonna’ > find a reason to make sick people feel guilty".  They are > investigating ways to make us healthier, and that’s a very good thing. > This research, imo, is a tremendous gift to everyone who’s ill.  It > gives us some *individual control* over even chronic, incurable > diseases such as MS.  We can dampen the disease-producing activity in > our brains & spinal cords, just by maintaining a positive attitude! > Which means (again, imo) that ASMS can also help to dampen the > disease-producing activity in the brains & spinal cords of PwMS who > come here… > Chris F  :-) > PS… > Cytokine-induced sickness behavior. > Brain Behav Immun 2003 Feb;17(1 Suppl):112-8 > Kelley KW, Bluthe RM, Dantzer R, Zhou JH, Shen WH, Johnson RW, > Broussard SR. > Department of Animal Sciences, Laboratory of Immunophysiology, > University of Illinois, 207 Edward R. Madigan Laboratory, 1201 West > Gregory Drive, 61801, Urbana, IL, USA > The behavioral repertoire of humans and animals changes dramatically > following infection. Sick individuals have little motivation to eat, > are listless, complain of fatigue and malaise, loose interest in > social activities and have significant changes in sleep patterns. They > display an inability to experience pleasure, have exaggerated > responses to pain and fail to concentrate. > Proinflammatory cytokines acting in the brain cause sickness > behaviors. These nearly universal behavioral changes are a > manifestation of a central motivational state that is designed to > promote recovery. Exaggerated symptoms of sickness in cancer patients, > such as cachexia, can be life-threatening. However, quality of life is > often drastically impaired before the cancer becomes totally > debilitating. > Although basic studies in psychoneuroimmunology have defined > proinflammatory cytokines as the central mediators of sickness > behavior, a much better understanding of how cytokine and > neurotransmitter receptors communicate with each other is needed. > Advances that have been made during the past decade should now be > extended to clinical studies in an attempt to alleviate sickness > symptoms and improve quality of life for cancer patients. > PMID: 12615196 [PubMed - in process]

Response:

On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:52:50 GMT, in alt.support.mult-sclerosis,Laura Lauth <lla…@earthlink.net> wrote: >Hi kids, >Ok,  I think I get it,  but if cytokines cause malaise and crummy feelings, >how do people debilitated by brain chemistry gain a good healthy attitude? >It seems like Catch 22. >And can/do you realize the concept sort of begs a "well,  duh!"  kind of >response.  Some of us (me) have problems being MarySunshine in the face of >this research.   >Not arguing,  asking.

See, I have tried to make clear that a positive, cheery outlook is not simply a choice, in spite of what some others might suggest.  All things being equal, it *can* be, but when one is in the throes of MS caused depression, being happy would, at best, be a facade. Having said that … I have also wondered if depression was not a method that the body uses to fight MS. Let me explain: Depression has this ability to hamper the immune system.  MS is an overactive immune disease.  Hence, if one with MS were depressed, perhaps it would cause the MS to slow … but, at the same time, depression alone is not good for general health. I had mentioned this to my youngest daughter and said that I am just not the type to get depressed.  She is going to AA now.  (I mention this because I so enjoy irony)  She mentioned that alcohol is a … depressant. Well, I *do* drink a little wine, now.  I’ll finish off a bottle once a week or two (it gets really rusty by that time, but I’m drinking it for its *medicinal* uses, so taste alone is not my highest priority). It does have a calming effect (dealing with stresses) and I’m sure that is at least a little bit worthwhile. OK, aside from chocolate and wine, I have no special, patentable cure for MS. I do, though, keep favoring Cowboy’s favorite cure (posted within the past few months). — "Who we are and who we become depends, in part, on whom we love." — "A General Theory Of Love"  Thanks, Mom ______________________________________________________________ Glen Appleby  gl…@armory.com <HTTP://www.armory.com/~glena/>

Response:

Laura wrote:

"Ok,  I think I get it,  but if cytokines cause malaise and crummy feelings, how do people debilitated by brain chemistry gain a good healthy attitude? It seems like Catch 22. And can/do you realize the concept sort of begs a "well,  duh!"  kind of response.  Some of us (me) have problems being MarySunshine in the face of this research.   Not arguing,  asking." I’m not a mental health professional, so I don’t know how anyone else can do it. The first step in my counselling was learning to keep my mouth shut. I’m not being sarcastic when I say this, it’s true.  Doc Psychologist advised that my thoughts & beliefs are closely tied to the words I say and folks’ reaction to those words. So if I choose to express gloomy, "I can’t" -related words and receive a "poor you" response, that bolsters my conviction that I have something to be sad about = my cytokines begin to rev up.  The more I use negative words to describe my life/situation – and the more support I get for my negative words – the stronger my negative thoughts & beliefs become = my cytokines begin to party-hearty. My best advice – see a counselor who specializes in depressive disorders. Chris F

Response:

Glen wrote:

"Having said that … I have also wondered if depression was not a method that the body uses to fight MS. Let me explain: Depression has this ability to hamper the immune system.  MS is an overactive immune disease.  Hence, if one with MS were depressed, perhaps it would cause the MS to slow … but, at the same time, depression alone is not good for general health." Depression is an excellent survival strategy – if you’re suffering from an acute illness or injury which will heal best w. time & relative inactivity.  So I think depression was a normal, instinctive & helpful reaction to the stress of illness at a time during human evolution when traumatic injuries were the greatest threat to survival…and long-term, chronic illnesses were rare because the majority of folks who developed them died relatively soon. But now that we have treatments to extend the lives of folks w. long-term chronic illnesses and ways to feed & shelter them, our natural tendency to depression in the face of illlness-related stress has become a negative survival strategy because it deprives us of the healing effects of a positive attitude, good appetite, restful sleep and motivation for physical activity. So imo it’s vital that we fight our natural tendency to become depressed when ill with everything we’ve got – pharmacologic therapies, counselling, specialized support groups w. trained moderators/counselors, encouragement from friends & family, alternative therapies, whatever. I see a comparison with laziness, which I think is also an instinctive trait because it was an excellent survival strategy at a time when folks had to hunt/forage for their own food and physically compete for mating rights – and those who conserved their energy for hunting/foraging/reproducing had a better chance of survival. But now that our society has evolved to the point that food-seeking requires no more energy than driving to a store & mate-seeking can be done while sitting on a bar-stool, this formerly excellent survival strategy has proven to be a very bad idea, given that more than 50% of us are overweight and/or suffer health problems as a direct result of our inactivity & overeating.  So we have to fight the tendency to laziness with equal enthusiasm & all the support we can possibly find. Chris F

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