Talk Cancer » Cancer Statistics

Lupron and weight gain

admin — Sat, 25 Feb 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

The many reasons I left the eastern US (AL, FL, DE, NY, OH) include too much flat private land, and I’ve always hated and refused to live in cities. Even growing up in interior Alabama, I found plenty to do that kept me moving every moment I wasn’t in class. Even my summer jobs were aerobic, and accommodated at least 50 hours a week of playing grabass with my friends in the city pool. My grabass now costs much more, but the mindset was established as a (younger) kid. And even at our age and in the eastern U.S., there are plenty of opportunities for active lifestyles, both hedonistic (sports and exercise) and altruistic (community projects). Two of the scrappiest, leanest, fittest dynamos I know are recovering heart pts who spend hours in the gym 4-5 days a week warming up the equipment, the track, and the pool … when they’re not dodging barges in the Columbia River. I.P.

Response:

IP, You are one who really enjoys life, and that is great. Yet, many of us have fallen into the work, work, work, watch a little TV and hit the sack. Only to do it all over again tomorrow. I certainly do not know anything about Bob C’s life, but have given some generalizations. I hope you have motivated some of us to do a little more. I am active, but certainly not like you have been. Actually, yesterday when the dog came to me and wanted his walk, I was in the middle of something else and we never got to that walk. Your thoughts have made me realize that we should have grabbed the leash and taken off. The old dog really needs his walks to keep him limber (the poodle, not ME!!). Anyway, now that we are seeing signs of warmer weather and longer days, it certainly makes it easier. Good luck to all and get out there and get moving! Dale P

Response:

Of course, it’s always nice to have an ocean on one side and mountains on the other. Fishing in and around Cincinnati usually involves a float and housr of sheer boredom. I haven’t seen a snowmobile in 20 years. And the last time I tried windsurfing on the Ohio River, I almost got hit by a barge. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After working and the commute, you are probably tired and don’t get the activity you could otherwise. THAT’S why finding a vigorous activity we LOVE is so important. The only way work ever interfered with my play time was keeping me away from it. I was literally NEVER too tired to play, simply because play was the most important activity in my life. Example: rush home from work near dark, grab some food, hook my snowmobile trailer to my 4×4, head up the mountain, ride the night away standing up moto-cross style, rush home, grab a quick breakfast and change clothes and go back to the office … ’cause it was Thursday morning. We went every winter Wed night, and more commonly got back in time for a couple hours of sleep, but not always. Or drive 100 miles from work Fri afternoon, cast for bass all night, get back just in time to put in a 12-hour Saturday at the office. Ditto many other sports, jobs, and locations, right up to the present. I repeat: it’s motivation (read: obsession), not time. Even when I am doing nothing more than working out at home, some of my most vigorous workouts began with forcing myself to put in 10 minutes … by which time the activity had revved me up to the degree I kept going like a banshee with its hair on fire for the next two hours. After all, research has shown that a brief, brisk walk beats a nap or a candy bar for getting and keeping us awake and alert. working a desk job and commuting can tend to lead to poorer eating habits. You know, you grab something on the run here and there. Allow me to modify that statement: working a desk job and commuting can PROVIDE AN EXCUSE FOR poorer eating habits. I began eating "right" (however one defines it) years before I retired, and work almost never got in the way of it. I got my ass out of bed in time for a good breakfast (what most people would label "supper"); brown-bagged a big, tasty, healthy lunch (I agree one can’t go out for lunch and eat healthy easily); and ate supper at home. Simple! As for all the junk food people bring to the office, also simple: I just don’t eat it. Problem solved. And the brown-bagged lunch got me through with lunch quickly and thus out the door earlier in the afternoon; I got in up to 5-6 hours of daylight playtime after work in midsummer. Peter Pan syndrome? HELL, yes … and it’s going to keep me young until I die. It’ll keep me alive LONGER, too, if I can just do an end run around my cancer statistics. If no one finds these lectures motivational, I’ll quit. But if just one or two are encouraged and motivated by them, the rest of you will just have to hit DELETE. I.P.

Response:

After working and the commute, you are probably tired and don’t get the activity you could otherwise.

THAT’S why finding a vigorous activity we LOVE is so important. The only way work ever interfered with my play time was keeping me away from it. I was literally NEVER too tired to play, simply because play was the most important activity in my life. Example: rush home from work near dark, grab some food, hook my snowmobile trailer to my 4×4, head up the mountain, ride the night away standing up moto-cross style, rush home, grab a quick breakfast and change clothes and go back to the office … ’cause it was Thursday morning. We went every winter Wed night, and more commonly got back in time for a couple hours of sleep, but not always. Or drive 100 miles from work Fri afternoon, cast for bass all night, get back just in time to put in a 12-hour Saturday at the office. Ditto many other sports, jobs, and locations, right up to the present. I repeat: it’s motivation (read: obsession), not time. Even when I am doing nothing more than working out at home, some of my most vigorous workouts began with forcing myself to put in 10 minutes … by which time the activity had revved me up to the degree I kept going like a banshee with its hair on fire for the next two hours. After all, research has shown that a brief, brisk walk beats a nap or a candy bar for getting and keeping us awake and alert. working a desk job and commuting can tend to lead to poorer eating habits. You know, you grab something on the run here and there.

Allow me to modify that statement: working a desk job and commuting can PROVIDE AN EXCUSE FOR poorer eating habits. I began eating "right" (however one defines it) years before I retired, and work almost never got in the way of it. I got my ass out of bed in time for a good breakfast (what most people would label "supper"); brown-bagged a big, tasty, healthy lunch (I agree one can’t go out for lunch and eat healthy easily); and ate supper at home. Simple! As for all the junk food people bring to the office, also simple: I just don’t eat it. Problem solved. And the brown-bagged lunch got me through with lunch quickly and thus out the door earlier in the afternoon; I got in up to 5-6 hours of daylight playtime after work in midsummer. Peter Pan syndrome? HELL, yes … and it’s going to keep me young until I die. It’ll keep me alive LONGER, too, if I can just do an end run around my cancer statistics. If no one finds these lectures motivational, I’ll quit. But if just one or two are encouraged and motivated by them, the rest of you will just have to hit DELETE. I.P.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Dale, I appreciate your input. I have wondered about the thyroid thing before but no, it has never been checked. I will see if I can get that done in the near future. In the winter I do walk a treadmill 3-5 nights a week for 30 minutes each time, fast enough to work up a sweat and then a cool down at the end. I hold down a desk five days a week, maybe walking a maximum of 1/2-1 miles during each day at a normal (slow) pace in the factory, but usually have a moderately active weekend most weeks in the winter with cutting firewood, maintaining a 1/2 mile driveway, snowplowing, and walks in the woods. In the summer there is not enough time to do all the things that need to get done. You are right about the Lupron having both mental and physical effects upon the desire and ability to exercise. Thinking about it, these past 8 or so pounds have appeared while I excused myself from what appeared to be useless time on the treadmill and useless time spent carefully counting calories. I have just gone on Provigil to help a fatigue and sleep problem and maybe that will help get some of the get up and go back. How long have you been on Lupron? You say "cycles" so I assume you are doing intermittent therapy but what length on and off and for how long now and so on? The first year I was on it I put on 18-20 pounds. The next year plus I was off and did notice a big increase in energy. The past 1 1/2 years back on has produced considerably more fatigue than the first time. Thanks for your advise, I’ll ask to get the thyroid checked on my next visit.

I did a long stint on Lupron/Casodex from early 1999 through 2000. I have been off of it since then until September 2005, when I restarted the ADT. I think that the leaving of the work force may really help you with weight problems. After working and the commute, you are probably tired and don’t get the activity you could otherwise. Also, working a desk job and commuting can tend to lead to poorer eating habits. You know, you grab something on the run here and there. It can add up on you before you know it. Good luck in retirement, and keep moving and trying. Keep us posted. Dale P

Response:

The smiley should be a dead giveaway.

Didja ever think, say 10 years ago, that so much could ride on a colon and closed parenthesis?

Response:

The smiley should be a dead giveaway. Didja ever think, say 10 years ago, that so much could ride on a colon and closed parenthesis?

i don’t know about the parenthesis, but a couple of us have a ton riding on our colons. ::::::) I.P.

Response:

I.P., you have lots of good input here, much of it appropriate for my situation, some not. I do have a game plan, most of which has been reinforced with your post and others. Maybe there will be something positive to report back with down the road. Thanks for the input. (And I’ve seen enough of your humor here to make it awful hard for me to buy into you or P.P. Freely being insulted, but I will apologize if you can convince me otherwise)

The smiley should be a dead giveaway. I.P.

Response:

I find it interesting how two people with such disparit initial PSAs (and margins, I guess) can be brought to just about even by a good doctor and treatment plan. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, I’ve seen your posts for a long time but never before noticed a number parallels in our "situations"." My initial psa was higher (55) and at a later age, 55. Our surgeries were a few days apart, my margins positive but with the same Gleason and N0M0 as well. I went right to EBRT after healing due to cancer seen on the bladder surface, and Lupron for a year. After an off cycle I have been back on Lupron for the past 1 3/4 years now and my current string of psa’s are almost identical to yours. Not really the best string of events for either of us, but they say that considering where I started, I have been real fortunate to have held it off so far. I don’t know how many time I have been told that. The next psa is three months off, so we wait. And wait. In the meantime we’ll work on the fitness/weight thing and enjoy what we can. If the next reading is still on its way up, at any rate, it’s time to start a new battle. I’ll be watching for your posts, and wishing you the best of luck in your own battle. I gained almost 30 since going on Lupron 2

Good PSA news for me

admin — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Way to go Alan! Enjoy your great news! Steve U

Response:

… If I may, it was 15 months. However, one month later, it was 0.5. Taken as a lump, I would say the 1.8 was an erroneous reading. But, between 4/04 and 4/05, we would have said that your readings where classic doubling. But, then it dramatically dropped in one month! And now appears to be showing a classic radiation drop towards nadir ever since. Quite frankly, I’m befuddled. And elated!

Steve is the one guy on this newsgroup who knows the course of our disease better than we do ourselves! Cancer researchers take note! Steve Kramer is building up a priceless database of statistics. Alan

Response:

Great news Alan. The bounce is a scary thing. I’m in the middle and one never knows for sure until it drops and stays there. Way to go!!!!! Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I feel like sharing the good news I just got. After two years of bouncing PSA after HDR brachytherapy, I’ve finally hit a great number – 0.2. It might be just a low bounce but (knocking furiously on wood) it’s got me feeling great. All you guys with bouncing PSA values after brachytherapy, take heart. It really does take time to get the PSA down. When I saw the 1.8 I thought my treatment had probably failed, but it was apparently just a bounce. Here are the readings I’ve had: .8 .6 .9 .8 1.8 .5 .6 .2

Response:

Looks good – keep it up!! Sandy K.’

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel like sharing the good news I just got. After two years of bouncing PSA after HDR brachytherapy, I’ve finally hit a great number – 0.2. It might be just a low bounce but (knocking furiously on wood) it’s got me feeling great. All you guys with bouncing PSA values after brachytherapy, take heart. It really does take time to get the PSA down. When I saw the 1.8 I thought my treatment had probably failed, but it was apparently just a bounce. Here are the readings I’ve had: .8 .6 .9 .8 1.8 .5 .6 .2

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … If I may, it was 15 months. However, one month later, it was 0.5. Taken as a lump, I would say the 1.8 was an erroneous reading. But, between 4/04 and 4/05, we would have said that your readings where classic doubling. But, then it dramatically dropped in one month! And now appears to be showing a classic radiation drop towards nadir ever since. Quite frankly, I’m befuddled. And elated! Steve is the one guy on this newsgroup who knows the course of our disease better than we do ourselves! Cancer researchers take note! Steve Kramer is building up a priceless database of statistics. Alan

And like every other guy in this newsgroup, I am ENORMOUSLY grateful to Steve Kramer for the amazing work he does on behalf of all of us. Alex

Response:

As Leonard would be quick to point out, as a researcher’s tool, my records are virtually useless. I sincerely hope it to be an asset to us here, however. Else, I would not spend any time on it. However, I may sell it to a Nigerian some day. ;-)

Response:

Wonderful, Alan!! You waited long enough for that low number. Was that 1.8 at the "infamous 18 month time"??? Thanks. I forget the exact time, but it was somewhere in 12-18 months. Alan

If I may, it was 15 months. However, one month later, it was 0.5. Taken as a lump, I would say the 1.8 was an erroneous reading. But, between 4/04 and 4/05, we would have said that your readings where classic doubling. But, then it dramatically dropped in one month! And now appears to be showing a classic radiation drop towards nadir ever since. Quite frankly, I’m befuddled. And elated!

Response:

Congrats on the good news, Alan!! MikeH

Response:

I feel like sharing the good news I just got. After two years of bouncing PSA after HDR brachytherapy, I’ve finally hit a great number – 0.2. It might be just a low bounce but (knocking furiously on wood) it’s got me feeling great. All you guys with bouncing PSA values after brachytherapy, take heart. It really does take time to get the PSA down. When I saw the 1.8 I thought my treatment had probably failed, but it was apparently just a bounce. Here are the readings I’ve had: .8 .6 .9 .8 1.8 .5 .6 .2

Response:

Wonderful, Alan!! You waited long enough for that low number. Was that 1.8 at the "infamous 18 month time"??? All the best…..Ron and Heather

Response:

That is a fine number! And, better, a fantastic pattern. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 .08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Response:

Excellent news! Keep it coming! (Pun intended).

Response:

Wonderful, Alan!! You waited long enough for that low number. Was that 1.8 at the "infamous 18 month time"???

Thanks. I forget the exact time, but it was somewhere in 12-18 months. Alan

Response:

… Way to go Allan.

Thank you. A friend of mine just came up with a 1.0 about 18mo after seeds. Haven’t heard what his Doc said about it yet, but could also be the infamous "bounce".

Yes indeed. Tell him that 1.0 is _not_ an indication of failure. I’m still holding <0.1 after stopping ADT a year ago(18 mo after completing 42 IMRT.

That’s great George. It sounds like you’ve got a winner. Alan

Response:

That’s GREAT!! I’m up for my final shot of the 18mths Lucrin today, Jan 11, 2006. HDRB was mid July 2005. You’ve shown me a path to walk in the ensuing months/years. — Reader to complete… — Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake: — Regards — CC

Response:

Way to go Allan. A friend of mine just came up with a 1.0 about 18mo after seeds. Haven’t heard what his Doc said about it yet, but could also be the infamous "bounce" I’m still holding <0.1 after stopping ADT a year ago(18 mo after completing 42 IMRT.

Response:

Five hundred thousand new cases of cervical cancer

admin — Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

..but they are not called ‘AIDS’ so who gives a flying f–k?

Lots of people. Condoms can kill hundreds of thousands, and it is ‘politically incorrect’ to even mention it.

Ah–the fact cervical cancer rates are high doesn’t mean condoms cause cervical cancer. More likely, they simply don’t help prevent transmission of HPV, some variants of which are factors for development of cervical cancer. So provide the ONE PAPER that PROVES condoms cause cervical cancer. I’m sure you must have it. George M. Carter

Response:

Sociobiology and Cervical Cancer Letter to the Editor The April 1995 issue of Oncology featured an article that presented sound information on the state of viral interactions and cervical cancer, along with several excellent reviews. Cancer of the uterine cervix is a significant health and emotional problem that can have devastating effects on the patient’s life, personal relationships, and body image. In particular, localized cervical cancer treatment can seriously disrupt the patient’s personal and physical life, and the impact of systemic therapy is no less severe. The sociobiology of intimate contact also is a problem oncologists need to address. To condemn such contact is to forget why we are alive and to deny the realities of American life. Meanwhile, medicine appears to hail barrier prophylaxis as the "magic bullet," owing to the device’s effect on just one virus. Latex condoms are presumed to significantly reduce the transmission of viruses during intimate relations, and current national statistics even suggest that teenage pregnancies are decreasing–a trend ascribed to the use of condoms. Actually, even expensive con- doms are still a most imperfect form of birth control. The 1-year risk of unwanted pregnancy with higher quality barrier prophylaxis is the better part of 10%. Cancer physicians need to know more about the facts of condom use since, to paraphrase the old adage, "an ounce of prevention is worth pounds of trouble." First and most obviously, condoms can slip, fall off, or rupture. With just one such accident, a range of viruses can be transmitted to the sexual recipient. Industrial product testing of condoms’ capability to inflate against force is not necessarily equivalent to the stresses posed by actual use. To receive FDA approval, a year of testing for such devices is about the norm, but big business, politics, and bureaucracy make it somewhat difficult for the intelligent doctors of that agency to make any fast, intelligent judgements; they are on the "recipient end" of such issues. Second, the chemicals on the surface of condoms can cause serious inflammation (probably due to talc) in women. Also, even with thorough CDC re-review of minority heterosexuals in New York City, a significant proportion of women without other risk factors are turning up HIV positive. Such is the efficacy of many condoms in the complexities of everyday life. Whether individuals at risk of sexually transmitted viral infections are actually using condoms is another important issue. The increased cost of condoms may be as much a factor in deterring their more widespread use as is lack of education. Five hundred thousand new cases of cervical cancer worldwide should be cause for concern by the oncology profession. Health-care practitioners can only be as effective in preventing this disease as the agents and devices suggested for prophylaxis. Some believe that barrier contraceptives are an imperfect solution to tremendous cancer problems. The medical track record with regard to the elimination of viruses is not terribly strong. In fact new viruses emerge, reemerge, or mutate with alarming frequency. In part, prophylaxis will be used consistently if it is effective, noninjurious, and socially acceptable. The next generation depends on it for health reasons and current generations suffer from the effects of a variety of "intimate" viruses. An effective polyvalent vaccine can hardly be described as "just around the corner." Medicine may want to rethink its unconditional support of barrier prophylaxis. The market has expanded so that whole stores are dedicated to condom sales. Does the public know about the complexities of these imperfect devices? Certainly there is country-specific variation in education and quality control regarding condom use and, in turn, in the rate of viral transmission. The United States is not near the top of the list. As with firearms, we are not terribly picky about other "loaded guns." There are now even condoms on the market with slogans that seem specifically geared to the African-American population. A teenager can purchase a condom of uncertain synthetic material, and worse yet, can buy condoms designed to look like lollipops that guarantee nothing. Big business has moved into the marketplace with its usual bottom line. The medical bottom line is unnecessary death. Disease prevention is not a laughing matter, and yet condoms of all qualities are sold more freely than tobacco in this country. More responsible efforts, such as high-quality female condoms are worthy of some commendation, although unlike the diaphragm, they are fitted far outside a doctor’s office. Overall, the specifications of what is emerging as a medical necessity are not under the control of those who know the molecular biology of the problem. In general, medicine could step in where salespeople now control the action. Specifically, oncologic problems include a number of disorders that are infectious in origin and are unknowingly transmitted through intimate contact. As oncologists, we should be aware of the issues from the street to the laboratory bench. Thomas E. Goffman, MD, FACP Washington, D.C.

Response:

..but they are not called ‘AIDS’ so who gives a flying f–k? Condoms can kill hundreds of thousands, and it is ‘politically incorrect’ to even mention it. A mad, mad World!

Response:

IMART Radiation

admin — Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

After much research into all this, I was led to radiation. But I no longer believe it is the best treatment, only one of the best treatments, with surgery being another.

There is no "best" treatment. They all have pros and cons depending on such variables as the stage of the disease, whether it’s confined, gleason score, age of the patient, the patient’s personal preferences and values, etc. What is "best" is completely subjective for each particular patient in consultation with his physicians – and there should be more than one of the latter. Each patient should get at least two opinions, one from a surgeon and one from a radiation oncologist experienced with both external radiation and seeds. As I understand IMRT, it is a step above traditional EBRT in that the side effects are minimized and the prognosis for long term cure (greater than 10 years is good). As far as the age of the patient is concerned, relative youth (below age 60) is a double edge sword. The conventional wisdom is that a younger man should opt for surgery because it has the best track record for long term cure, and a younger man can withstand surgery better than an older one. But the younger man will have to live with the inevitable side effects of diminished sexual capacity and threat of incontinence for a longer period of time, not to mention "losing out" a decade of healthy response in both areas. I am 53, a year and a half post IMRT treatment, and have regained most of my pre treatment health. No incontinence, sleeping through the night before having to urinate, good erectile function, fair to middlin’ orgasm sensation (see "dry orgasm thread), falling PSA (nadir not reached yet), maybe a little lacking in physical endurance, but pretty much the same guy. I am completely happy with my choice of treatment and have no second thoughts. Nor should anybody. You do the research, you listen to your doctors, you talk to your family, you search your soul, you make your decision. Then you don’t look back.

Response:

For the new members of the PC group, don’t let the surgery guys drown out the wonderful option of Intensified Modulated Radiation Therepy (IMRT). I am 6 months post IMRT and have better erections than before PC with only temporary irritation of the bowel and frequent urination during the last week of treatment and for 2 months thereafter. My PSA went from 7.7 to 2.6 at 3 months and 1.9 at 6 months. CDS in TX

Response:

Sounds great…..5 years ago I was not going to trust a small town Dr. with a big Rad machine……. I went on. I am 5 years post op, oh, and do have a great manly blossom, when need be…….Hu Hum. Glad you are fine. John Loomis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the new members of the PC group, don’t let the surgery guys drown out the wonderful option of Intensified Modulated Radiation Therepy (IMRT). I am 6 months post IMRT and have better erections than before PC with only temporary irritation of the bowel and frequent urination during the last week of treatment and for 2 months thereafter. My PSA went from 7.7 to 2.6 at 3 months and 1.9 at 6 months. CDS in TX

Response:

… Intensified Modulated Radiation Therepy (IMRT). …

Glad you’re doing well. By the way, that should be "Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy". The machine has metal shields that are inserted into the beam inside the projector head under computer control. The metal shields block radiation at specific points, as directed by the computer. When done properly, this can slightly decrease the total radiation to parts you don’t want radiated, allowing a corresponding increase in the total radiation administered, and the total delievered to the cancer, for the same damage to healthy tissue. I agree that this is a valuable option. It’s highly recommended for men who are older and less likely to recover well from surgery. Its use in younger men is still debated. However, although younger myself (57 at time of treatment), I opted for radiation too. So far (knocking furiously on wood), I’m very pleased with the outcome. Please note, your mileage may vary on side effects. The statistics on potency after radiation seem to be about the same as for surgery. Lucky guys come out in great shape. Unlucky guys don’t. One big advantage on side effects is that incontinence is rare with radiation, and of course the surgical complications like blood clots, tearing, pain, and scarring which affect a minority of surgery patients don’t occur because there is no surgery. After much research into all this, I was led to radiation. But I no longer believe it is the best treatment, only one of the best treatments, with surgery being another. Alan

Response:

Odds On That God Exists, Says Scientist

admin — Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t see a source provided for this amusing stupidity yet I have to suspect that it’s from The Onion since it’s so silly. -=- Odds On That God Exists, Says Scientist A scientist has calculated that there is a 67% chance that God exists. Dr Stephen Unwin has used a 200-year-old formula to calculate the probability of the existence of an omnipotent being. Bayes’ Theory is usually used to work out the likelihood of events, such as nuclear power failure, by balancing the various factors that could affect a situation. This did the rounds a couple of months ago – its not a joke – the guy is serious. He starts by assuming that god/no god is %50 before looking at "evidence". Then he modifies that initial prbability according to the "evidence".

Does he assume that the Great Arkleseizure is has a yes/no probability of 50%? And if not, why not? Its a crock on several levels.

He’s supposed to be a scientist? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Either/or fallacy being the most obvious. (Pascal’s Error.) Mark.

Response:

Well spotted Chris. Strangely no. 0% for that and 0% for Zeus and his pantheon, the Egyptian pantheon, the Norse pantheon. All zero. And if not, why not?

Because if he included say 10,000 gods (just to pick an arbitary ,but slightly more "real world", number ) then the initial probability for God would be one half of 1 in 100000. Oh! And he is a christian. Call me a cynical old bastard, but that may have been a factor. Its a crock on several levels. He’s supposed to be a scientist?

Yep. Phd in Theoretical Physics I believe – London and Manchester. Even has his own website: http://www.stephenunwin.com/ Pathetic what religious belief does to peoples integrity isn’t it? Mark. — Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau Member of S.M.A.S.H. (Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)

Response:

The Manchester University graduate, who now works as a risk assessor in Ohio, said the theory starts from the assumption that God has a 50/50 chance of existing,

This has been posted here before, and my response is as before: GIGO.

Response:

I didn’t see a source provided for this amusing stupidity yet I have to suspect that it’s from The Onion since it’s so silly. -=- Odds On That God Exists, Says Scientist A scientist has calculated that there is a 67% chance that God exists. Dr Stephen Unwin has used a 200-year-old formula to calculate the probability of the existence of an omnipotent being. Bayes’ Theory is usually used to work out the likelihood of events, such as nuclear power failure, by balancing the various factors that could affect a situation.

This did the rounds a couple of months ago – its not a joke – the guy is serious. He starts by assuming that god/no god is %50 before looking at "evidence". Then he modifies that initial prbability according to the "evidence". Its a crock on several levels. Either/or fallacy being the most obvious. (Pascal’s Error.) Mark. — Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau Member of S.M.A.S.H. (Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)

Response:

I didn’t see a source provided for this amusing stupidity yet I have to suspect that it’s from The Onion since it’s so silly. -=- What with the topic of God and religeon so often our faces so much this election cycle, I thought perhaps camps on both sides of the great question mark might get a chuckle out of this. Seems unlikely that one could calculate the odds of God’s existence with any credibility, but what the hell. Have at it. ; ) Odds On That God Exists, Says Scientist A scientist has calculated that there is a 67% chance that God exists. Dr Stephen Unwin has used a 200-year-old formula to calculate the probability of the existence of an omnipotent being. Bayes’ Theory is usually used to work out the likelihood of events, such as nuclear power failure, by balancing the various factors that could affect a situation. The Manchester University graduate, who now works as a risk assessor in Ohio, said the theory starts from the assumption that God has a 50/50 chance of existing, and then factors in the evidence both for and against the notion of a higher being. Factors that were considered included recognition of goodness, which Dr Unwin said makes the existence of God more likely, countered by things like the existence of natural evil – including earthquakes and cancer. The unusual workings – which even take into account the existence of miracles – are set out in his new book, which includes a spreadsheet of the data used so that anyone can make the calculation themselves should they doubt its validity. The book, The Probability of God: A simple calculation that proves the ultimate truth, will be published later this month. Dr Unwin said he was interested in bridging the gap between science and religion. He argues that rather than being a theological issue, the question of God’s existence is simply a matter of statistics. "On arriving in America I was exposed to certain religious outlooks that were somewhat of an assault upon my sensibilities – outlooks in which religion actually competes with science as an explanation of the world," he said. "While I could not be sure, having slept through most of the cathedral services I had attended during secondary school, this did not seem like the version of faith I had remembered. In many ways, this project was for me a journey home – a reconciliation of my faith and education." Despite his findings, Dr Unwin maintains that he is personally around 95% certain that God exists. However, Graham Sharp, media relations director at William Hill, said there were technical problems with giving odds on the existence of God. "The problem is how you confirm the existence of God. With the Loch Ness monster we require confirmation from the Natural History Museum to pay out, but who are we going to ask about God? The church would definitely confirm his existence." Mr Sharp said William Hill does take bets on the second coming, which currently stand at 1,000/1. For this confirmation is needed from the Archbishop of Canterbury. "We do take bets on the second coming, whether that confirms the existence of God is up to the theologians to argue, most people wouldn’t believe that, though." — Where to find Fahrenheit 9/11: http://www.f911tix.com/ "There’s nothing innocent about the Arabs, dumbass." – Creosote 216.67.201.248

Response:

How long does it last… adulterous relationships .. a little long because I got carried away in writing

admin — Sun, 09 May 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I didn’t read all about this guy that stole your wife away because I could care less. He’s a loser. Whatever. He’s also got nothing to do with you and its your wife’s problem, not yours. Also, regardless of how big of an ass he is, he still managed to steal her away. You make it sound like it was all his doing. She is as guilty of the affair as he is, more so. Her choice to cheat on you, remember that. What goes around comes around. Why do you care what shes getting herself into? She cheated on you with another man for christ’s sake. How often do the relationships work out? 95% or them fail. That’s the latest statistic that I’ve heard so, likely, their relationship won’t work. Again though, it doesn’t matter. Their relationship has NOTHING to do with you. One day, you really won’t give a shit. Take the advice you said we would give you. Focus on you. Peace Karen

Response:

You know, I am sure that you have legitimate feelings of upset and agony, but, it is hard to avoid laughing when you think of your stbx’s new man. Consider him a God’s/Fate’s tool of punishment for her. It is upsetting though that your life was ruined partly by such seemingly worthless creep. i – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A little long because I got carried away in writing I know many are going to say who cares and only worry about focusing on you and what makes you feel better to move ahead in life. I realize that, but what I want to know are what is the statistics of a successful third marriage or adulterous relationship from an affair of two people that cheated on both respective spouses. Do these things really last? I mean cheaters usually cheat again don’t they? I think I read that third marriages are even less likely than first or second ones to work. I mean do those things end up working built on lies and betrayal. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. Needless to say, she left me with the impression that it was all my fault and I blamed myself. I stopped blaming myself after his wife called me and told me of the affair with him and my stbx. My horror story is that my ex is involved with a spiritualist, I will call him L, (who is also the carpenter that worked on our house) from her so called church ( she said she didn’t want to attend catholic church with me anymore, they discriminate against women.) and they are so screwed up that they both show up in this so called nut case church and parade each others adulterous affair to everyone. Pure blasphemy if you ask me, that’s a church?. He " ministers " to these wacky woman that are mostly lost souls anyways and zeros in on their weaknesses and takes advantage of them. He will talk to them for an hour and say absolutely nothing and they walk away thinking he is wonderful. This guy is a pathological liar, he has actually got in front of everyone and told him he was a Vietnam vet, that he trained special forces and all this other BS. His second wife thought he was a Vietnam vet for 9 years, she thought that that is why he was a drunk drug abuser for awhile and lost his marbles, she happened to tell this casually to a long time friend that she hasn’t seen in years and this woman said she grew up with L and she knows friends who went to Vietnam and some didn’t return. She said L NEVER went to Vietnam, he went Germany, but never Vietnam. He told his second wife all the nasty shit they did there, the killing, etc.., how he hates guns and hunting and all this other bullshit. He even told me he was a Vietnam vet, That he was a grunt or infantryman, because I asked him about it, he didn’t want to talk about his experiences he said.. It gets better, he is a carpenter that never gave his first or second wife anything as far as a house, though he always had these great plans, etc and talked a great game, he never did anything. His first wife only got a support check of 25 dollars / MONTH , not week, a month after 21 years and he welched on that for a while too. (Ironically the first wife was so fed up , that she wanted nothing from him just a divorce, because he had nothing, but the judge said you have to get something for 3 kids, so he awarded her 25 bucks a month) He used to steal from his daughter and she won’t talk to him to this day because he used to steal money from her and his first wife to drink and buy drugs. The second wife needed a project she said, her kids were gone, she was divorced and lonely, getting him straightened out would be a good savior type of thing she said. She got him sober , got him working.. etc.. AND this part is where she told me that he is really weird, she would come home from work and he would be nude on the couch meditating , no TV and do it for hours every night. Also the he started wearing woman’s black silky panties, said they felt more comfortable, and then the flowery ones, months later and then she came home and he had his feet up on the coffee table and he was painting his nails to "match his moods". She later found woman’s nylons and size 12 pumps . He had stories for everything, but she had no time to worry about him to much because her 23 old daughter was dying of cancer in N.Carolina. she went there to pick her up and bring her home to die. Somewhere in their before the daughter died, ( I am not sure of timelines here) , she left him and he said he needed to find himself, that’s why he did it. She came back and he said he bought all new men’s underwear and socks, etc,.. But months later it started all over. He ended up leaving his wife 3 weeks after her daughter died for my stbx. They moved in together and my wife wants a divorce. I have now found out that this affair was going on for months and months though she denies it.. there is so much more I could write about this loser besides that he has horribly bad breath, no front teeth, I don’t think my stbx knows much about this guy or what she is in for. I suppose that this is a sign to me that our relationship wasn’t meant to be. But it hurts that she gave everything up for a pathological liar and loser. I know he is blowing smoke up her ass from the intercepted email his wife told me about. How he talks a good line but never does anything. I see my little question, turned into a venting of writing for me, I needed a release. If you have an answer or would like to add an opinion, please do so.

– char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34); } "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."

Response:

yea, i guess you are right…I want to laugh again, but when I was writing this it wasn’t so funny, maybe he is her punishment, I sure hope so.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I am sure that you have legitimate feelings of upset and agony, but, it is hard to avoid laughing when you think of your stbx’s new man. Consider him a God’s/Fate’s tool of punishment for her. It is upsetting though that your life was ruined partly by such seemingly worthless creep. i A little long because I got carried away in writing I know many are going to say who cares and only worry about focusing on you and what makes you feel better to move ahead in life. I realize that, but what I want to know are what is the statistics of a successful third marriage or adulterous relationship from an affair of two people that cheated on both respective spouses. Do these things really last? I mean cheaters usually cheat again don’t they? I think I read that third marriages are even less likely than first or second ones to work. I mean do those things end up working built on lies and betrayal. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. Needless to say, she left me with the impression that it was all my fault and I blamed myself. I stopped blaming myself after his wife called me and told me of the affair with him and my stbx. My horror story is that my ex is involved with a spiritualist, I will call him L, (who is also the carpenter that worked on our house) from her so called church ( she said she didn’t want to attend catholic church with me anymore, they discriminate against women.) and they are so screwed up that they both show up in this so called nut case church and parade each others adulterous affair to everyone. Pure blasphemy if you ask me, that’s a church?. He " ministers " to these wacky woman that are mostly lost souls anyways and zeros in on their weaknesses and takes advantage of them. He will talk to them for an hour and say absolutely nothing and they walk away thinking he is wonderful. This guy is a pathological liar, he has actually got in front of everyone and told him he was a Vietnam vet, that he trained special forces and all this other BS. His second wife thought he was a Vietnam vet for 9 years, she thought that that is why he was a drunk drug abuser for awhile and lost his marbles, she happened to tell this casually to a long time friend that she hasn’t seen in years and this woman said she grew up with L and she knows friends who went to Vietnam and some didn’t return. She said L NEVER went to Vietnam, he went Germany, but never Vietnam. He told his second wife all the nasty shit they did there, the killing, etc.., how he hates guns and hunting and all this other bullshit. He even told me he was a Vietnam vet, That he was a grunt or infantryman, because I asked him about it, he didn’t want to talk about his experiences he said.. It gets better, he is a carpenter that never gave his first or second wife anything as far as a house, though he always had these great plans, etc and talked a great game, he never did anything. His first wife only got a support check of 25 dollars / MONTH , not week, a month after 21 years and he welched on that for a while too. (Ironically the first wife was so fed up , that she wanted nothing from him just a divorce, because he had nothing, but the judge said you have to get something for 3 kids, so he awarded her 25 bucks a month) He used to steal from his daughter and she won’t talk to him to this day because he used to steal money from her and his first wife to drink and buy drugs. The second wife needed a project she said, her kids were gone, she was divorced and lonely, getting him straightened out would be a good savior type of thing she said. She got him sober , got him working.. etc.. AND this part is where she told me that he is really weird, she would come home from work and he would be nude on the couch meditating , no TV and do it for hours every night. Also the he started wearing woman’s black silky panties, said they felt more comfortable, and then the flowery ones, months later and then she came home and he had his feet up on the coffee table and he was painting his nails to "match his moods". She later found woman’s nylons and size 12 pumps . He had stories for everything, but she had no time to worry about him to much because her 23 old daughter was dying of cancer in N.Carolina. she went there to pick her up and bring her home to die. Somewhere in their before the daughter died, ( I am not sure of timelines here) , she left him and he said he needed to find himself, that’s why he did it. She came back and he said he bought all new men’s underwear and socks, etc,.. But months later it started all over. He ended up leaving his wife 3 weeks after her daughter died for my stbx. They moved in together and my wife wants a divorce. I have now found out that this affair was going on for months and months though she denies it.. there is so much more I could write about this loser besides that he has horribly bad breath, no front teeth, I don’t think my stbx knows much about this guy or what she is in for. I suppose that this is a sign to me that our relationship wasn’t meant to be. But it hurts that she gave everything up for a pathological liar and loser. I know he is blowing smoke up her ass from the intercepted email his wife told me about. How he talks a good line but never does anything. I see my little question, turned into a venting of writing for me, I needed a release. If you have an answer or would like to add an opinion, please do so. — —

char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34); } – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."

Response:

Lauri, The you’ll get through this line means alot, thanks, John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A little long because I got carried away in writing I know many are going to say who cares and only worry about focusing on you and what makes you feel better to move ahead in life. I realize that, but what I want to know are what is the statistics of a successful third marriage It actually doesn’t matter what the statistics are; if their relationship had a 90% chance of failure,there is still that 10% that they’d succeed and we can’t predict which side–90 or 10–your STBX will be. Focusing on yourself and your healing is the correct approach. I can see how you’d be weirded out that your ex seems to be leaving you for this nut-job in women’s underwear (??!!!); to me, it just speaks to how messed-up she is. Her leaving may not have anything at all to do with you, and everything to do with some pretty screwed-up things going on in her head. As for him…..wow. You can’t fix these people. There is no way to make sense out of why she wants to be with him; some things just don’t make any sense no longer how you analyze them, and this may well be one. Good luck. Spend some time every day taking care of yourself. You’ll get through this. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

Lol, thank Xenos, well said. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A bit long yes but i can relate. So your wife did not leave you for somebody much better but for somebody much worse. Good that she left, you somehow know this. After some recovery time you will upgrade since your stbx choose to downgrade. A little long because I got carried away in writing I know many are going to say who cares and only worry about focusing on you and what makes you feel better to move ahead in life. I realize that, but what I want to know are what is the statistics of a successful third marriage or adulterous relationship from an affair of two people that cheated on both respective spouses. Do these things really last? I mean cheaters usually cheat again don’t they? I think I read that third marriages are even less likely than first or second ones to work. I mean do those things end up working built on lies and betrayal. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. Needless to say, she left me with the impression that it was all my fault and I blamed myself. I stopped blaming myself after his wife called me and told me of the affair with him and my stbx. My horror story is that my ex is involved with a spiritualist, I will call him L, (who is also the carpenter that worked on our house) from her so called church ( she said she didn’t want to attend catholic church with me anymore, they discriminate against women.) and they are so screwed up that they both show up in this so called nut case church and parade each others adulterous affair to everyone. Pure blasphemy if you ask me, that’s a church?. He " ministers " to these wacky woman that are mostly lost souls anyways and zeros in on their weaknesses and takes advantage of them. He will talk to them for an hour and say absolutely nothing and they walk away thinking he is wonderful. This guy is a pathological liar, he has actually got in front of everyone and told him he was a Vietnam vet, that he trained special forces and all this other BS. His second wife thought he was a Vietnam vet for 9 years, she thought that that is why he was a drunk drug abuser for awhile and lost his marbles, she happened to tell this casually to a long time friend that she hasn’t seen in years and this woman said she grew up with L and she knows friends who went to Vietnam and some didn’t return. She said L NEVER went to Vietnam, he went Germany, but never Vietnam. He told his second wife all the nasty shit they did there, the killing, etc.., how he hates guns and hunting and all this other bullshit. He even told me he was a Vietnam vet, That he was a grunt or infantryman, because I asked him about it, he didn’t want to talk about his experiences he said.. It gets better, he is a carpenter that never gave his first or second wife anything as far as a house, though he always had these great plans, etc and talked a great game, he never did anything. His first wife only got a support check of 25 dollars / MONTH , not week, a month after 21 years and he welched on that for a while too. (Ironically the first wife was so fed up , that she wanted nothing from him just a divorce, because he had nothing, but the judge said you have to get something for 3 kids, so he awarded her 25 bucks a month) He used to steal from his daughter and she won’t talk to him to this day because he used to steal money from her and his first wife to drink and buy drugs. The second wife needed a project she said, her kids were gone, she was divorced and lonely, getting him straightened out would be a good savior type of thing she said. She got him sober , got him working.. etc.. AND this part is where she told me that he is really weird, she would come home from work and he would be nude on the couch meditating , no TV and do it for hours every night. Also the he started wearing woman’s black silky panties, said they felt more comfortable, and then the flowery ones, months later and then she came home and he had his feet up on the coffee table and he was painting his nails to "match his moods". She later found woman’s nylons and size 12 pumps . He had stories for everything, but she had no time to worry about him to much because her 23 old daughter was dying of cancer in N.Carolina. she went there to pick her up and bring her home to die. Somewhere in their before the daughter died, ( I am not sure of timelines here) , she left him and he said he needed to find himself, that’s why he did it. She came back and he said he bought all new men’s underwear and socks, etc,.. But months later it started all over. He ended up leaving his wife 3 weeks after her daughter died for my stbx. They moved in together and my wife wants a divorce. I have now found out that this affair was going on for months and months though she denies it.. there is so much more I could write about this loser besides that he has horribly bad breath, no front teeth, I don’t think my stbx knows much about this guy or what she is in for. I suppose that this is a sign to me that our relationship wasn’t meant to be. But it hurts that she gave everything up for a pathological liar and loser. I know he is blowing smoke up her ass from the intercepted email his wife told me about. How he talks a good line but never does anything. I see my little question, turned into a venting of writing for me, I needed a release. If you have an answer or would like to add an opinion, please do so.

Response:

A bit long yes but i can relate. So your wife did not leave you for somebody much better but for somebody much worse. Good that she left, you somehow know this. After some recovery time you will upgrade since your stbx choose to downgrade. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A little long because I got carried away in writing I know many are going to say who cares and only worry about focusing on you and what makes you feel better to move ahead in life. I realize that, but what I want to know are what is the statistics of a successful third marriage or adulterous relationship from an affair of two people that cheated on both respective spouses. Do these things really last? I mean cheaters usually cheat again don’t they? I think I read that third marriages are even less likely than first or second ones to work. I mean do those things end up working built on lies and betrayal. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. Needless to say, she left me with the impression that it was all my fault and I blamed myself. I stopped blaming myself after his wife called me and told me of the affair with him and my stbx. My horror story is that my ex is involved with a spiritualist, I will call him L, (who is also the carpenter that worked on our house) from her so called church ( she said she didn’t want to attend catholic church with me anymore, they discriminate against women.) and they are so screwed up that they both show up in this so called nut case church and parade each others adulterous affair to everyone. Pure blasphemy if you ask me, that’s a church?. He " ministers " to these wacky woman that are mostly lost souls anyways and zeros in on their weaknesses and takes advantage of them. He will talk to them for an hour and say absolutely nothing and they walk away thinking he is wonderful. This guy is a pathological liar, he has actually got in front of everyone and told him he was a Vietnam vet, that he trained special forces and all this other BS. His second wife thought he was a Vietnam vet for 9 years, she thought that that is why he was a drunk drug abuser for awhile and lost his marbles, she happened to tell this casually to a long time friend that she hasn’t seen in years and this woman said she grew up with L and she knows friends who went to Vietnam and some didn’t return. She said L NEVER went to Vietnam, he went Germany, but never Vietnam. He told his second wife all the nasty shit they did there, the killing, etc.., how he hates guns and hunting and all this other bullshit. He even told me he was a Vietnam vet, That he was a grunt or infantryman, because I asked him about it, he didn’t want to talk about his experiences he said.. It gets better, he is a carpenter that never gave his first or second wife anything as far as a house, though he always had these great plans, etc and talked a great game, he never did anything. His first wife only got a support check of 25 dollars / MONTH , not week, a month after 21 years and he welched on that for a while too. (Ironically the first wife was so fed up , that she wanted nothing from him just a divorce, because he had nothing, but the judge said you have to get something for 3 kids, so he awarded her 25 bucks a month) He used to steal from his daughter and she won’t talk to him to this day because he used to steal money from her and his first wife to drink and buy drugs. The second wife needed a project she said, her kids were gone, she was divorced and lonely, getting him straightened out would be a good savior type of thing she said. She got him sober , got him working.. etc.. AND this part is where she told me that he is really weird, she would come home from work and he would be nude on the couch meditating , no TV and do it for hours every night. Also the he started wearing woman’s black silky panties, said they felt more comfortable, and then the flowery ones, months later and then she came home and he had his feet up on the coffee table and he was painting his nails to "match his moods". She later found woman’s nylons and size 12 pumps . He had stories for everything, but she had no time to worry about him to much because her 23 old daughter was dying of cancer in N.Carolina. she went there to pick her up and bring her home to die. Somewhere in their before the daughter died, ( I am not sure of timelines here) , she left him and he said he needed to find himself, that’s why he did it. She came back and he said he bought all new men’s underwear and socks, etc,.. But months later it started all over. He ended up leaving his wife 3 weeks after her daughter died for my stbx. They moved in together and my wife wants a divorce. I have now found out that this affair was going on for months and months though she denies it.. there is so much more I could write about this loser besides that he has horribly bad breath, no front teeth, I don’t think my stbx knows much about this guy or what she is in for. I suppose that this is a sign to me that our relationship wasn’t meant to be. But it hurts that she gave everything up for a pathological liar and loser. I know he is blowing smoke up her ass from the intercepted email his wife told me about. How he talks a good line but never does anything. I see my little question, turned into a venting of writing for me, I needed a release. If you have an answer or would like to add an opinion, please do so.

Response:

Thanks Lauri, it’s a living nightmre, but I am trying to cope and pick up and go on. Thanks again. John

Response:

It actually doesn’t matter what the statistics are; if their relationship had a 90% chance of failure,there is still that 10% that they’d succeed and we can’t predict which side–90 or 10–your STBX will be. Focusing on yourself and your healing is the correct approach. I can see how you’d be weirded out that your ex seems to be leaving you for this nut-job in women’s underwear (??!!!); to me, it just speaks to how messed-up she is. Her leaving may not have anything at all to do with you, and everything to do with some pretty screwed-up things going on in her head. As for him…..wow. You can’t fix these people. There is no way to make sense out of why she wants to be with him; some things just don’t make any sense no longer how you analyze them, and this may well be one. Good luck. Spend some time every day taking care of yourself. You’ll get through this. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

I see my little question, turned into a venting of writing for me, I needed a release. If you have an answer or would like to add an opinion, please do so.

ranting it’s fine bud, my suggestion is to try and forget your stbx and concentrate on yourself. Move on , close that chapter, your ex is a cheater, enough said good luck

Response:

Its good to vent. Getting your thoughts and feelings down on "paper" helps relive internal stress. But I’m sure you know, statistics does not determine what will happen in your case… whatever the likelihood is, you may end up on the wrong side, anyway. All you can do now is work to build the kind of future that you want for yourself. [R] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know many are going to say who cares and only worry about focusing on you and what makes you feel better to move ahead in life. I realize that, but what I want to know are what is the statistics of a successful third marriage or adulterous relationship from an affair of two people that cheated on both respective spouses. Do these things really last? I mean cheaters usually cheat again don’t they? I think I read that third marriages are even less likely than first or second ones to work. I mean do those things end up working built on lies and betrayal. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. Needless to say, she left me with the impression that it was all my fault and I blamed myself. I stopped blaming myself after his wife called me and told me of the affair with him and my stbx.

Response:

A little long because I got carried away in writing I know many are going to say who cares and only worry about focusing on you and what makes you feel better to move ahead in life. I realize that, but what I want to know are what is the statistics of a successful third marriage or adulterous relationship from an affair of two people that cheated on both respective spouses. Do these things really last? I mean cheaters usually cheat again don’t they? I think I read that third marriages are even less likely than first or second ones to work. I mean do those things end up working built on lies and betrayal. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. My stbx now wants a divorce and I think they may marry after this is over. Needless to say, she left me with the impression that it was all my fault and I blamed myself. I stopped blaming myself after his wife called me and told me of the affair with him and my stbx. My horror story is that my ex is involved with a spiritualist, I will call him L, (who is also the carpenter that worked on our house) from her so called church ( she said she didn’t want to attend catholic church with me anymore, they discriminate against women.) and they are so screwed up that they both show up in this so called nut case church and parade each others adulterous affair to everyone. Pure blasphemy if you ask me, that’s a church?. He " ministers " to these wacky woman that are mostly lost souls anyways and zeros in on their weaknesses and takes advantage of them. He will talk to them for an hour and say absolutely nothing and they walk away thinking he is wonderful. This guy is a pathological liar, he has actually got in front of everyone and told him he was a Vietnam vet, that he trained special forces and all this other BS. His second wife thought he was a Vietnam vet for 9 years, she thought that that is why he was a drunk drug abuser for awhile and lost his marbles, she happened to tell this casually to a long time friend that she hasn’t seen in years and this woman said she grew up with L and she knows friends who went to Vietnam and some didn’t return. She said L NEVER went to Vietnam, he went Germany, but never Vietnam. He told his second wife all the nasty shit they did there, the killing, etc.., how he hates guns and hunting and all this other bullshit. He even told me he was a Vietnam vet, That he was a grunt or infantryman, because I asked him about it, he didn’t want to talk about his experiences he said.. It gets better, he is a carpenter that never gave his first or second wife anything as far as a house, though he always had these great plans, etc and talked a great game, he never did anything. His first wife only got a support check of 25 dollars / MONTH , not week, a month after 21 years and he welched on that for a while too. (Ironically the first wife was so fed up , that she wanted nothing from him just a divorce, because he had nothing, but the judge said you have to get something for 3 kids, so he awarded her 25 bucks a month) He used to steal from his daughter and she won’t talk to him to this day because he used to steal money from her and his first wife to drink and buy drugs. The second wife needed a project she said, her kids were gone, she was divorced and lonely, getting him straightened out would be a good savior type of thing she said. She got him sober , got him working.. etc.. AND this part is where she told me that he is really weird, she would come home from work and he would be nude on the couch meditating , no TV and do it for hours every night. Also the he started wearing woman’s black silky panties, said they felt more comfortable, and then the flowery ones, months later and then she came home and he had his feet up on the coffee table and he was painting his nails to "match his moods". She later found woman’s nylons and size 12 pumps . He had stories for everything, but she had no time to worry about him to much because her 23 old daughter was dying of cancer in N.Carolina. she went there to pick her up and bring her home to die. Somewhere in their before the daughter died, ( I am not sure of timelines here) , she left him and he said he needed to find himself, that’s why he did it. She came back and he said he bought all new men’s underwear and socks, etc,.. But months later it started all over. He ended up leaving his wife 3 weeks after her daughter died for my stbx. They moved in together and my wife wants a divorce. I have now found out that this affair was going on for months and months though she denies it.. there is so much more I could write about this loser besides that he has horribly bad breath, no front teeth, I don’t think my stbx knows much about this guy or what she is in for. I suppose that this is a sign to me that our relationship wasn’t meant to be. But it hurts that she gave everything up for a pathological liar and loser. I know he is blowing smoke up her ass from the intercepted email his wife told me about. How he talks a good line but never does anything. I see my little question, turned into a venting of writing for me, I needed a release. If you have an answer or would like to add an opinion, please do so.

Response:

An Observation

admin — Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

An Observation As one reads about the homosexual movement into our society one thing seems to be common. Whatever they do or where ever they go they end up destroying whatever they enter into be it marriage, religion, entertainment, politics, juris prudence, education, healthcare…

For example? Be specific.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Observation As one reads about the homosexual movement into our society one thing seems to be common. Whatever they do or where ever they go they end up destroying whatever they enter into be it marriage, religion, entertainment, politics, juris prudence, education, healthcare… It is as a cancer, living off it’s host until it utterly destroys it…and itself also in the process. Having your head stuck up your own arse effectively prevents you from making any observation. It also means you probably haven’t got much to fear from homosexual activity. I suspect your problem is that any sexual activity is an alien experience for you

I would say you’re right on the proverbial money there, torch. J.

Response:

Funny, I would say the same thing about religion. — MarkA (still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)

Response:

It’s sad, I know……. but the unfortunate day WILL dawn when the homos to pay for it when God deems the time to be right.

"In God’s good time…."- Dying words of Captain Nemo, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea

Response:

An Observation As one reads about the homosexual movement into our society one thing seems to be common.

An Observation on IKHDY: As one reads your multiple posts, one thing seems to be common: Whatever YOU write, whatever the subject, you end up avoiding answering ANY specific questions and usually speak in generalizations, spouting your platitudes instead of giving solid answers. Your BROAD-BRUSH generalizations in this post are an example of your utter dishonesty in dealing with any subject. Whatever they do or where ever they go they end up destroying whatever they enter into be it marriage, religion, entertainment, politics, juris prudence, education, healthcare…

OK…above you covered: 1) marriage, 2) religion, 3) entertainment, 4) politics, 5) juris prudence, 6) education, 7) healthcare… I would ask you to document ANY ONE of the above, but of course, you can’t document anything. That is why you are so content with the comfort you derive from the illusion of GENERALIZATIONS. It is as a cancer, living off it’s host until it utterly destroys it…and itself also in the process.

Can you give an example of your statement above? Please relate your "cancer, living off it’s host" generalization to "entertainment" or to "juris prudence" for example. Since you listed those among your seven specific categories, I am sure you can easily give multiple examples of all of it. Winning an argument on the Internet is like winning the gold medal at the Special Olympics. Even though you’re the champ, you’re still a retard. —Buck

Response:

As one reads about the homosexual movement into our society When are you pretending that gay people were absent form our society?

And where are they moving *from? (Homoslavia maybe?) — Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of State and corporate power." – Mussolini

Response:

You are such an unrelentingly evil person… — Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of State and corporate power." – Mussolini

Response:

As one reads about the homosexual movement into our society

When are you pretending that gay people were absent form our society?

Response:

One thing they don’t screw up is music, some of the finest music has come from gay artists. Joe

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – demonstrated her educational level when she verbalized such gems as: …the ‘powers-that-be’ WILL no doubt legalize homosexual and lesbian ‘relationships’ in a half-assed facsimile… …followed by… and look at all the blasted special attention the queers who are engaging in BDSM, etc…… are getting… And defending her right to generalize while saying nothing specific she belched: And no, for certain individuals who will no doubt ask, I will not repeat the definitiona of ‘lifestyle’ as everyone already knows what it means….. Making one last tribute to education, Elaine blurted: to pay for it when God deems the time to be right. "the homos and lezzies???" "they WILL be forced to pay for it?" Pay for what? How do you know? Are you God? And what is a homos and lezzies??? No wonder Scout Female picks on you. Yes, Elaine…you HAVE created God in your own image!

Yes Elaine! ujie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. – Anne Lamott

Response:

demonstrated her educational level when she verbalized such gems as: …the ‘powers-that-be’ WILL no doubt legalize homosexual and lesbian ‘relationships’ in a half-assed facsimile…

…followed by… and look at all the blasted special attention the queers who are engaging in BDSM, etc…… are getting…

And defending her right to generalize while saying nothing specific she belched: And no, for certain individuals who will no doubt ask, I will not repeat the definitiona of ‘lifestyle’ as everyone already knows what it means…..

Making one last tribute to education, Elaine blurted: to pay for it when God deems the time to be right.

"the homos and lezzies???" "they WILL be forced to pay for it?" Pay for what? How do you know? Are you God? And what is a homos and lezzies??? No wonder Scout Female picks on you. Yes, Elaine…you HAVE created God in your own image! You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. – Anne Lamott

Response:

They destroy whatever they enter into you say? Let’s see. You mentioned the entertainment industry. Who do we have (or did have) in the entertainment industry who is/was gay. Peter Allan Elton John Freddie Mercury Andy Warhol Rock Hudson A longer list. http://www.posimages.org/rolemodels.html A full list (very long). http://www.youthfirsttexas.org/famous_gay_people All great entertainers and good all round people. They made wonderful contributions to the entertainment industry. Such that straight individuals would most likely not have. Gay people are in many cases exceptionally creative people and they add to the diversity of this world. You also mentioned religion. Well there are a lot of gay preists in religion so I guess religion is totally screwed then. There are things I could say about the other industries but I don’t have statistics handy. It is as a cancer, living off it’s host until it utterly destroys it…and itself also in the process.

There are three things that are definitely cancers in society and they are narrow mindedness, bigotry and intolerance. — Andrew Werner. Oral tradition is by definition unstable, notoriously open to mythical, legendary, and fictional embellishment. ~ Randel Helms Religion Exposed! http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner

Response:

Methinks you protest too much If these urges worry you perhaps you should consult a sex therapist

Response:

and told this tale in alt.atheism An Observation As one reads about the homosexual movement into our society one thing seems to be common. Whatever they do or where ever they go they end up destroying whatever they enter into be it marriage, religion, entertainment, politics, juris prudence, education, healthcare…

Marriage? Been legal in some Scandanavian countries for years now.. and the marriage rates among straight couples is rising. Religion? Destroying religion is a good thing, as far as I’m concerned. Entertainment? You have to be kidding me.. Politics? Prove it. Jurisprudence? (It’s one word) How? Education? No, that would be the Republican Party. Healthcare? Give me details backed with facts. — Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5 Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"

Response:

Having your head stuck up your own arse effectively prevents you from making any observation. It also means you probably haven’t got much to fear from homosexual activity. I suspect your problem is that any sexual activity is an alien experience for you

Response:

Whatever they do or where ever they go they end up destroying whatever they enter into be it marriage, religion, entertainment, politics, juris prudence, education, healthcare…

In that case, I would like to put in a request that it destroy religion in a more expeditious fashion. What’s taking those gays so long? JH #1696

Response:

As one reads about the homosexual movement into our society one thing seems to be common. [...]

As one reads about the fundie cult movement into our society one thing seems to be common. Whatever they do or where ever they go, they end up destroying whatever they enter into, be it justice, freedom, democracy… It is like a cancer, living off it’s host until it utterly destroys it…and itself also in the process. Sound familiar, yes? And contrary to the braindead ramblings of the living chicken tract I-know-SHIT this is based in fact. By the way, fundie boy, you still owe us an answer. 12 – 9 = ? Have you learned basic maths yet, eh?

Response:

And yet you don’t cite a single actual example. Best, Marc

Response:

How about some cites for those. I’ve never heard of any of that happening. It is as a cancer, living off it’s host until it utterly destroys it…and itself also in the process.

Cite please. what is the host and how does homosexuality destroy it? Real Shirts for Real People http://www.cafeshops.com/realitees

Response:

An Observation

… Brilliant. Another nugget of pure genius. Let me guess… your "car will be unmanned in case of rapture"..

Response:

An Observation

Here’s my observation. You’re a real pain in the ass. Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

Response:

Odd, your observations are completely different from mine. — Denis Loubet http://www.io.com/~dloubet

Response:

An Observation

You don’t strike me as the observant type, IDon’tKnowShit.

Response:

the following discourse: An Observation

(I took the liberty of correcting your misspelling) As one reads about religion in our society one thing

seems to be common. Whatever they do or where ever they go they end up destroying whatever they enter into be it marriage, religion, entertainment, politics, juris prudence, education, healthcare… It is as a cancer, living off it’s host until it utterly destroys it…and itself also in the process.

Now, doesn’t this whole thing make a lot more sense? — Woden "religion is a socio-political institution for the control of people’s thoughts, lives, and actions; based on ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."

Response:

Statistics in perspective

admin — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Excellent article about statistics from a Steven J. Gould who had cancer (not PCa). He explains how it’s possible that the statistics said the median length of survival was 8 months, but he actually lived 20 years. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/gould — Wake Biopsy positive 5% in 1 of 10 cores T1c Gleason 3+3 RRP 1/12/04 Pathology agreed with biopsy + Negative margins Erection 1/30/04

Response:

That was a good article. Gould was a great scientist, a great writer, and a helluva human being. Alan

Response:

do something for your head!

admin — Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hey White Boy! Don’t drive a white limousine through South Central Los Angeles. Why do you think Boston has a "Combat Zone?"

Response:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:02:25 +0000, Cymbal Man Freq. wrote: > Hey White Boy! Don’t drive a white limousine through South Central Los Angeles.

http://www.georgeclinton.com — Comrade see my ROAD TO THE UNITED FRONT http://www.mysolution.ws the aristocracy was the problem in 1776, the aristocracy is the problem today http://www.aclu.org/dissentreport Aristocrats CRUCIFIED Jesus we must close the door by which aristocracy arises Martin Luther King Jr said "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." and their creed became, I REFUSE TO DREAM and when we REFUSE TO DREAM? when we go on a strike? when we propose laissez faire with respect to what we control? WELL, you see the story of laissez faire changes quick, immediately there is not a hands-off policy, and we are forced back to work, via anti-strike legislations, Taft-Hartley acts, etc., not only are we not allowed to dream our dream, we are forced to keep dreaming their’s, we are niether allowed to dream or not dream, and such is how Pharoah robs a man of his asylum in himself, and sets up Pharoah as man’s only asylum (http://www.mysolution.ws/cabal.htm) Statements of supposed science, without statistics, are just as much religion, and ONLY statements of faith as any religion, or statement of faith, except they profess the supposed scientist is God, even more dangerous than religion or God. There is no science, without a statement of statistics, AND any statement without statistics, is a conjecture of faith by the professor of such statement, and the "believer". An ethical house cleaning of science and government is in order. "Does God want goodness? or the choice of goodness? Is the man who chooses bad, somehow better, than the man who has the good forced upon him?" a quote from the movie, A Clockwork Orange, Kubrick Enlightenment is man’s release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage is man’s inability to make use of his understanding without direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude! "Have courage to use your own reason!" – that is the motto of enlightenment. Kant — What Is Enlightenment? 1784 "It all sums up into one single purpose, the abolition of dog-eat-dog under which we live… and I traveled the United Front road to get it." — Roger Baldwin, Co-Founder ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) "Timothy Leary’s dead, No No No No, He’s outside, looking in Timothy Leary’s dead, No No No No, He’s outside, looking in" MOODY BLUES "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."–Matthew 16:6 (religious and political leaders that are hypocrites) (leaven is yeast, AIR IN BREAD, bullshit, fluff, marketing, snake oil – HYPOCRISY) "How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."–Matthew 16:11-12 "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."–Matthew 23:13 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."–Matthew 23:14 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."–Matthew 23:15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."–Matthew 23:23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess."–Matthew 23:25 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness."–Matthew 23:27 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,"–Matthew 23:29 "And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod."–Mark 8:15 "And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,"–Mark 12:38 see my ROAD TO THE UNITED FRONT http://www.mysolution.ws

Response:

fellow mental patients! do something for your head!

Response:

decapitation?

Response:

I promised I’d stay off drugs…In my head. wrote in message

news:4ubgiv8pq4pfhlhfstnn4h4luilkt56aqq@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:21:51 -0400 (EDT), damod…@webtv.net wrote: > >decapitation? > aspirin > or perhaps fish oil

Response:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 02:41:55 +0900, jonathan wrote: > do something for your head!

go to these groups alt.society.labor-unions alt.military.retired soc.culture.african.american alt.drugs.psychedelics alt.politics.communism read this thread Subject: they’re suggesting camelot again (DNC is having covention in holy city of boston) participate politically as you see fit (emphasis on political, for sanity purposes) A MILLION YIPPIE MARCH IS PLANNED http://members.aol.com/stewa/YippieMarchpage.html and upon this day, if John McCain comes, and brings POW-MIA to make an alliance with the hippies, and resolves the 60’s, we shall resolve TODAY come to the MILLION YIPPIE MARCH John McCain and bring the Hell’s Angels and all 1% motorcycle clubs, like the horses of the Book of Revelation are riding in on that city via the march that day as with any 1% DNC is trying to sell us camelot as the answer again they see aristocracy has exposed themselves they see our ZEAL in their defeat in 2004 and these lesser aristocrats think our aspirations and ZEAL are an opportunity for them to climb the ladder, at our expense, so they can be the greater aistocrats we’re trying to fight aristocracy and do away with Grand Old Party, GOP, republican party and aristocracy and the DNC is holding their convention in their holy city of Boston we have seen the course of events of camelot and false leftists they make a big bunch of allusion of promises JFK gets elected fucks with labor and peoples’ movements (hoffa and castro, etc.) gives his brother RFK a peoples’ job via NEPOTISM to fuck with labor and people and then JFK and RFK get whacked and their wives say "silly communists" did it, and then we are back to a confused nation of anarchy, taking several decades to come to any clarity on the proletarian handshake with the libertarian, MUST BE STRONG AND ABSOLUTE, or aristocracy will prevail I suggest some sobreity by DNC in moving the convention to a place that represents BOTH proletarians and libertarians good mix of manufacturing, tech community, and culture Boston does not have the manufacturing base and does not give us proletarian revelry San Fran, is a little better Pittsburgh/Detroit/Buffalo/Cleveland do not broker the cultural allusion enough Vegas/Atlantic City/Reno – used to say we are going to let the working man have fun, and that we are the fun people, but said working men cannot afford Vegas anymore where can be present the idea, that we are the funnest people of all? I say it all has been made a pig bin, we need something pristine and clean Denver, Colorado Sturgis, South Dakota Montana maybe Oregon, lots of real left stuff goes on there let’s us, make it clear, that WE are the heartland, and they rob men of heart you might not be in Kansas anymore Dorothy, but it looks like that is where you are headed back to let’s us, make it clear, that WE are the heartland, and they rob men of heart let’s us, make it clear, that WE are the heartland, and they rob men of heart NOW, ofcourse you know we will vote for a liar , instead of the outright devil, and you will get out votes, BUT, we do intend to try to make you live up to "the allusion", politically ofcourse, realize when you spit on the aspirations of men, and their blood and sweat and tears, some of those men, are not as contrite and restrained as I, and we who know anarchy and violence justs presents a barrier to solidarity in an existing democracy, try our hardest to bring such people to their senses, and we are tying to make some sanity of this, but you are not helping now you know what really started the 60’s my friends …… every revolution is always a fight of communal common men, over aristocracy, and when DNC sold out man’s only political avenue against GOP and aristocracy, the common man had no viable political avenuem and now you know what really started the 60’s my friends …… Vietnam wanted its independence from colonial France, such independence was not on economic terms that capitalist USA liked, USA took France’s side John McCain had to go live in a cage for 5 years, over this aristocratic agenda John McCain is going to bring back every POW-MIA back to the LEFT with the truth that the use of our working men, for "agenda" must be seen for WHAT IS WAS, and WHAT IT IS TODAY Sharpton on CNN Crossfire today, has said, if elected, the Iraq issue gets turned over to the United Nations, the coalition ends, and our participation in foreign events will be by the vehicle of the United Nations and democracy and NEVER a coalition in spite of such adn we can take our revoluton VERY far, by not spitting on the police and military this time, who are just doing their jobs, we need to get at the big pigs in the starched white shirts, politically, and VERY politically A MILLION YIPPIE MARCH IS PLANNED http://members.aol.com/stewa/YippieMarchpage.html and upon this day, if John McCain comes, and brings POW-MIA to make an alliance with the hippies, and resolves the 60’s, we shall resolve TODAY come to the MILLION YIPPIE MARCH John McCain and bring the Hell’s Angels and all 1% motorcycle clubs, like the horses of the Book of Revelation are riding in on that city via the march that day http://www.hells-angels.com/ make the call John McCain and organize this ride, for the MILLION YIPPIE MARCH, John McCain http://members.aol.com/stewa/YippieMarchpage.html John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain v John McCain John McCain John McCain John McCain I get about 1000 hits/day on my FRONT site, about 5 hits/minute from all over the world, from usenet participation alone, and 1 or 2 hits from search engines, referrals and links to my site on other sites are growing, and I thank the search engines and referers for such, PEOPLE HEAR WHAT I WRITE HERE from all over the world Belgium Denmark Germany Finland Netherlands Rome England Canada Australia Poland all over USA (Virginia, and Maryland, top on list) the Orient, Beijing, etc. see my ROAD TO THE UNITED FRONT http://www.mysolution.ws with 2nd generation socialist ideas that allow for privitization first, under rulesets by which it does not matter who owns what, and therefore the materialism game, comes to an end, and people and socialism are truly effected I get about 1000 hits/day on my FRONT site, about 5 hits/minute from all over the world, from usenet participation alone, and 1 or 2 hits from search engines, referrals and links to my site on other sites are growing, and I thank the search engines and referers for such, PEOPLE HEAR WHAT I WRITE HERE why is there a sound of silence here? the words of the prophets are only spoken in the subway walls, and tenement halls, they are whispered out of fear, BUT THEY ARE INDEED by traffic analysis, being whispered Hello darkness, my old friend, I’ve come to talk with you again, Because a vision softly creeping, Left its seeds while I was sleeping, And the vision that was planted in my brain Still remains Within the sound of silence. In restless dreams I walked alone Narrow streets of cobblestone, ‘Neath the halo of a street lamp, I turned my collar to the cold and damp When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light That split the night And touched the sound of silence. And in the naked light I saw Ten thousand people, maybe more. People talking without speaking, People hearing without listening, People writing songs that voices never share And no one dare Disturb the sound of silence. "Fools" said I, "You do not know Silence like a cancer grows. Hear my words that I might teach you, Take my arms that I might reach you." But my words like silent raindrops fell, And echoed In the wells of silence And the people bowed and prayed To the neon god they made. And the sign flashed out its warning, In the words that it was forming. And the sign said, "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls And tenement halls." And whisper’d in the sounds of silence. – Paul Simon – "Wednesday Morning 3A.M.", 1964 — Comrade see my ROAD TO THE UNITED FRONT http://www.mysolution.ws the aristocracy was the problem in 1776, the aristocracy is the problem today http://www.aclu.org/dissentreport Aristocrats CRUCIFIED Jesus we must close the door by which aristocracy arises Martin Luther King Jr said "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." and their creed became, I REFUSE TO DREAM and when we REFUSE TO DREAM? when we go on a strike? when we propose laissez faire with respect to what we control? WELL, you see the story of laissez faire changes quick, immediately there is not a hands-off policy, and we are forced back to work, via anti-strike legislations, Taft-Hartley acts, etc., not only are we not allowed to dream our dream, we are forced to keep dreaming their’s, we are niether allowed to dream or not dream, and such is how Pharoah robs a man of his asylum in himself, and sets up Pharoah as man’s only asylum (http://www.mysolution.ws/cabal.htm) Statements of supposed science, without statistics, are just as much religion, and ONLY statements of faith as any religion, or statement of faith, except they profess the supposed scientist is God, even more dangerous than religion or God. There is no science, without a statement of statistics, AND any statement without statistics, is a conjecture of faith by … read more »

Response:

Getting off testosterone replacement?

admin — Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi Ernie, Thank you for the feedback. I will check into this too. Best regards, Mel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, These effects are not established as great or very significant. In fact the data is usually very small effects in a statistically small group. Statistics based on too small a group can be misleading and especially when the data is old. Sometimes other factors such as age or conditions that are related can be enough to upset a study when this is the case. I would suggest talking to my favorite endocrinologist that has been treating men with TRT for decades in Augusta GA. Dr. R. Don Gambrell has a web site and will take questions. http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/ ernestnolan Hi Joe, Thank you so much for the time and effort you went to to help answer my question. Sorry I took so long to respond, I’ve been out of town. I am going to talk to my doctors about what you have to say and hopefully they will respond and help me get off the testosterone. Recently I read a post on this NG where a fellow said his doctor may take him off testosterone replacement. I thought you couldn’t do that. I have been on Androgel for about two years and would like to stop using it. Will my body adjust and start producing its own testosterone again? The reason I want to stop is that I read in some rare cases it can cause your cholesterol to go too low, which mine has. I found out recently that too low cholesterol can cause as many problems as too high. Thanks for any information you can give. Quick answer: in many cases you can regain your pre-TRT natural production (whatever that was). To expedite and ease the restart process, there’s a protocol involving hCG and in some cases Clomid. If I remember right Clomid will help get my FSH to rise. If that is the case I don’t know if it will help me because before I started TRT it was twice the normal level. I had a lot of radiation around my gonads when I had rectal cancer, so I may never get the FSH up there again. If you’re otherwise happy on TRT, except for cholesterol, I’d examine that further. I just recently heard of a supplement that is supposed to help bring up the level of cholesterol. I may give it a try and if it works then I may stay on TRT. But I may not be able to stay on due to cut backs in Medicaid and if they do stop helping me I can’t afford the TRT. Some studies show TRT will reduce HDL (good cholesterol), which you don’t want. However other studies don’t show that. Make sure you’ve had a complete lipids profile, including total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, and triglycerides. You should also have a complete blood count (CBC) to check your hematocrit and other values, and a PSA test if you haven’t had one. I had a blood work up just recently and my cholesterol has come up a bit to HDL of 32, Chol/HDL Ratio of 3.0, and my LDL-Direct of 57. If it keeps going up I may be okay. I have been eating a lot of eggs and dairy lately to try to help get it to a higher level. The testosterone molecules in Androgel are identical to what your body naturally makes. In theory there should be no difference, assuming your dosage is properly adjusted. Have your free T and estradiol levels been checked to ensure proper dosage? I just had my estradiol tested and it was normal at 43. When I first started TRT I was getting too much and it went way up, so I cut back. A funny thing I didn’t expect is that when I have higher doses of Testosterone my sex drive goes way down and when I cut back on the dose it goes back up some. That is how I have been regulating my dosage. In most cases it is possible to stop TRT after two years, according to a couple of endocrinologists I asked. This assumes you took it properly at normal replacement levels, not at the very high levels some bodybuilders take. The best case is you’ll revert to your pre-TRT production level, which presumably was deficient else you wouldn’t have taken TRT. There’s a protocol for coming off TRT that involves taking hCG for 1-2 months while you take TRT (ramping down T dosage toward the end), then stopping both. Unfortunately there’s no published data on this I can find. Bodybuilders have a lot of empirical experience with this since they cycle on and off steroids and face the same problem. In addition to hCG they often take Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) for a few weeks after the hCG phase. The reasoning is Clomid helps restart the hypothalamus pituitary production of LH. The reason for taking hCG is to force restart of testicular production. After being I just hope my doctors go for the HCG. I hope they do because what you have shared with me make good sense. on TRT for an extended period there’s some atrophy, not just physically but also regarding production capacity. The restart interval seems to be very roughly 4 – 8 weeks, but I can’t find good data on this. Of course you could just quit TRT, but you’d face a harsh several months while your hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis restarts. There are two restart considerations: testicular restart and hypothalamus-pituitary restart. The limited data I’ve seen indicates testicular restart is the dominate component time-wise, thus the hCG. There was one study on this, but I can’t find it. However bodybuilders often take Clomid for a couple of weeks beginning about a week after the hCG phase. Since estrogen acts as negative feedback reducing pituitary LH production, and Clomid blocks estrogen receptors, this supposedly expedites the hypothalamus-pituitary portion of the restart. If you want to stop TRT first make sure your reasons and concerns are valid. Next review what your pre-TRT testosterone level was. E.g, if this was 250 ng/dl, there’s little reason in even trying to stop TRT. Then discuss with your Dr the restart protocol. At a minimum this should involve hCG injections, probably 5000 to 7000 units per week for 4 to 8 weeks. Following this it may also involve Clomid or some other anti-estrogen drug, but some go without this. — Joe D. Thanks again Joe. Best regards, Mel

Response:

Thanks Joe! That is very helpful information. I will check it out and talk with my doctors. Best regards, Mel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Joe, Thank you so much for the time and effort you went to to help answer my question. Sorry I took so long to respond, I’ve been out of town. I am going to talk to my doctors about what you have to say and hopefully they will respond and help me get off the testosterone. The limited data I’ve seen indicates testicular restart is the dominate component time-wise, thus the hCG. There was one study on this, but I can’t find it. OK I found the study I mentioned. It’s listed below. In general it shows that after long term TRT, the dominate component governing endogenous restart is testicular production. IOW almost immediately after quitting TRT, the hypothalamus realizes this and signals the pituitary via GnRH. The pituitary almost immediately reacts and produces LH and FSH. However the testicles are very sluggish and it takes at least 4 weeks to get any response at all, and 6-8 weeks to get a decent response, and 12 weeks (3 months) to reach pre-TRT levels. Without other treatment, you’d be feeling pretty bad during most of this time. The purpose of hCG treatment in coming of TRT is to force testicular restart over a 4-6 week period, while you continue taking TRT. In theory this avoids the prolonged months-long crash of stopping TRT. In addition to hCG, some bodybuilders take Clomid to further kick start the hypothalamic-pituitary axis, but the below study implies this probably isn’t vital. Without any medication, the hypothalamus and pituitary are very quick to respond. It is possible hCG might increase estradiol, so possibly a very limited dose of Clomid, Arimidex, etc. could ensure estradiol is low, avoiding negative feedback to the hypothalamus. However that’s somewhat speculative. The key is hCG. Here’s a web page that discusses this: http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i7postcycle.html — Joe D. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, testosterone, and seminal fluid analyses in normal men. Mauss J, Borsch G, Bormacher K, Richter E, Leyendecker G, Nocke W. Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1975 Feb;78(2):373-84.

Response:

Recently I read a post on this NG where a fellow said his doctor may take him off testosterone replacement. I thought you couldn’t do that. I have been on Androgel for about two years and would like to stop using it. Will my body adjust and start producing its own testosterone again? The reason I want to stop is that I read in some rare cases it can cause your cholesterol to go too low, which mine has. I found out recently that too low cholesterol can cause as many problems as too high. Thanks for any information you can give. Mel

Response:

Quick answer: in many cases you can regain your pre-TRT natural production (whatever that was). To expedite and ease the restart process, there’s a protocol involving hCG and in some cases Clomid. If you’re otherwise happy on TRT, except for cholesterol, I’d examine that further. Some studies show TRT will reduce HDL (good cholesterol), which you don’t want. However other studies don’t show that. Make sure you’ve had a complete lipids profile, including total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, and triglycerides. You should also have a complete blood count (CBC) to check your hematocrit and other values, and a PSA test if you haven’t had one. The testosterone molecules in Androgel are identical to what your body naturally makes. In theory there should be no difference, assuming your dosage is properly adjusted. Have your free T and estradiol levels been checked to ensure proper dosage? In most cases it is possible to stop TRT after two years, according to a couple of endocrinologists I asked. This assumes you took it properly at normal replacement levels, not at the very high levels some bodybuilders take. The best case is you’ll revert to your pre-TRT production level, which presumably was deficient else you wouldn’t have taken TRT. There’s a protocol for coming off TRT that involves taking hCG for 1-2 months while you take TRT (ramping down T dosage toward the end), then stopping both. Unfortunately there’s no published data on this I can find. Bodybuilders have a lot of empirical experience with this since they cycle on and off steroids and face the same problem. In addition to hCG they often take Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) for a few weeks after the hCG phase. The reasoning is Clomid helps restart the hypothalamus pituitary production of LH. The reason for taking hCG is to force restart of testicular production. After being on TRT for an extended period there’s some atrophy, not just physically but also regarding production capacity. The restart interval seems to be very roughly 4 – 8 weeks, but I can’t find good data on this. Of course you could just quit TRT, but you’d face a harsh several months while your hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis restarts. There are two restart considerations: testicular restart and hypothalamus-pituitary restart. The limited data I’ve seen indicates testicular restart is the dominate component time-wise, thus the hCG. There was one study on this, but I can’t find it. However bodybuilders often take Clomid for a couple of weeks beginning about a week after the hCG phase. Since estrogen acts as negative feedback reducing pituitary LH production, and Clomid blocks estrogen receptors, this supposedly expedites the hypothalamus-pituitary portion of the restart. If you want to stop TRT first make sure your reasons and concerns are valid. Next review what your pre-TRT testosterone level was. E.g, if this was 250 ng/dl, there’s little reason in even trying to stop TRT. Then discuss with your Dr the restart protocol. At a minimum this should involve hCG injections, probably 5000 to 7000 units per week for 4 to 8 weeks. Following this it may also involve Clomid or some other anti-estrogen drug, but some go without this. — Joe D.

Response:

Hey, i used clomid for 21 days and raised my T level from 1.3 to 4.2 and it seems to have stuck. i would suggest tamoxifen instead of clomid as it has fewer side effects. 10 to 20 mg per day. but for someone on T replacement it may need a lot of hcg treatment first. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Recently I read a post on this NG where a fellow said his doctor may take him off testosterone replacement. I thought you couldn’t do that. I have been on Androgel for about two years and would like to stop using it. Will my body adjust and start producing its own testosterone again? The reason I want to stop is that I read in some rare cases it can cause your cholesterol to go too low, which mine has. I found out recently that too low cholesterol can cause as many problems as too high. Thanks for any information you can give. Mel

Response:

Hi Joe, Thank you so much for the time and effort you went to to help answer my question. Sorry I took so long to respond, I’ve been out of town. I am going to talk to my doctors about what you have to say and hopefully they will respond and help me get off the testosterone. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Recently I read a post on this NG where a fellow said his doctor may take him off testosterone replacement. I thought you couldn’t do that. I have been on Androgel for about two years and would like to stop using it. Will my body adjust and start producing its own testosterone again? The reason I want to stop is that I read in some rare cases it can cause your cholesterol to go too low, which mine has. I found out recently that too low cholesterol can cause as many problems as too high. Thanks for any information you can give. Quick answer: in many cases you can regain your pre-TRT natural production (whatever that was). To expedite and ease the restart process, there’s a protocol involving hCG and in some cases Clomid.

If I remember right Clomid will help get my FSH to rise. If that is the case I don’t know if it will help me because before I started TRT it was twice the normal level. I had a lot of radiation around my gonads when I had rectal cancer, so I may never get the FSH up there again. If you’re otherwise happy on TRT, except for cholesterol, I’d examine that further.

I just recently heard of a supplement that is supposed to help bring up the level of cholesterol. I may give it a try and if it works then I may stay on TRT. But I may not be able to stay on due to cut backs in Medicaid and if they do stop helping me I can’t afford the TRT. Some studies show TRT will reduce HDL (good cholesterol), which you don’t want. However other studies don’t show that. Make sure you’ve had a complete lipids profile, including total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, and triglycerides. You should also have a complete blood count (CBC) to check your hematocrit and other values, and a PSA test if you haven’t had one.

I had a blood work up just recently and my cholesterol has come up a bit to HDL of 32, Chol/HDL Ratio of 3.0, and my LDL-Direct of 57. If it keeps going up I may be okay. I have been eating a lot of eggs and dairy lately to try to help get it to a higher level. The testosterone molecules in Androgel are identical to what your body naturally makes. In theory there should be no difference, assuming your dosage is properly adjusted. Have your free T and estradiol levels been checked to ensure proper dosage?

I just had my estradiol tested and it was normal at 43. When I first started TRT I was getting too much and it went way up, so I cut back. A funny thing I didn’t expect is that when I have higher doses of Testosterone my sex drive goes way down and when I cut back on the dose it goes back up some. That is how I have been regulating my dosage. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In most cases it is possible to stop TRT after two years, according to a couple of endocrinologists I asked. This assumes you took it properly at normal replacement levels, not at the very high levels some bodybuilders take. The best case is you’ll revert to your pre-TRT production level, which presumably was deficient else you wouldn’t have taken TRT. There’s a protocol for coming off TRT that involves taking hCG for 1-2 months while you take TRT (ramping down T dosage toward the end), then stopping both. Unfortunately there’s no published data on this I can find. Bodybuilders have a lot of empirical experience with this since they cycle on and off steroids and face the same problem. In addition to hCG they often take Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) for a few weeks after the hCG phase. The reasoning is Clomid helps restart the hypothalamus pituitary production of LH. The reason for taking hCG is to force restart of testicular production. After being

I just hope my doctors go for the HCG. I hope they do because what you have shared with me make good sense. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – on TRT for an extended period there’s some atrophy, not just physically but also regarding production capacity. The restart interval seems to be very roughly 4 – 8 weeks, but I can’t find good data on this. Of course you could just quit TRT, but you’d face a harsh several months while your hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis restarts. There are two restart considerations: testicular restart and hypothalamus-pituitary restart. The limited data I’ve seen indicates testicular restart is the dominate component time-wise, thus the hCG. There was one study on this, but I can’t find it. However bodybuilders often take Clomid for a couple of weeks beginning about a week after the hCG phase. Since estrogen acts as negative feedback reducing pituitary LH production, and Clomid blocks estrogen receptors, this supposedly expedites the hypothalamus-pituitary portion of the restart. If you want to stop TRT first make sure your reasons and concerns are valid. Next review what your pre-TRT testosterone level was. E.g, if this was 250 ng/dl, there’s little reason in even trying to stop TRT. Then discuss with your Dr the restart protocol. At a minimum this should involve hCG injections, probably 5000 to 7000 units per week for 4 to 8 weeks. Following this it may also involve Clomid or some other anti-estrogen drug, but some go without this. — Joe D.

Thanks again Joe. Best regards, Mel

Response:

Thanks Sevenofnine! I will see what my doctors have to say and see if I can try the tamoxifen, plus HCG. Thanks again. Best regards, Mel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, i used clomid for 21 days and raised my T level from 1.3 to 4.2 and it seems to have stuck. i would suggest tamoxifen instead of clomid as it has fewer side effects. 10 to 20 mg per day. but for someone on T replacement it may need a lot of hcg treatment first. Recently I read a post on this NG where a fellow said his doctor may take him off testosterone replacement. I thought you couldn’t do that. I have been on Androgel for about two years and would like to stop using it. Will my body adjust and start producing its own testosterone again? The reason I want to stop is that I read in some rare cases it can cause your cholesterol to go too low, which mine has. I found out recently that too low cholesterol can cause as many problems as too high. Thanks for any information you can give. Mel

Response:

OK I found the study I mentioned. It’s listed below. In general it shows that after long term TRT, the dominate component governing endogenous restart is testicular production. IOW almost immediately after quitting TRT, the hypothalamus realizes this and signals the pituitary via GnRH. The pituitary almost immediately reacts and produces LH and FSH. However the testicles are very sluggish and it takes at least 4 weeks to get any response at all, and 6-8 weeks to get a decent response, and 12 weeks (3 months) to reach pre-TRT levels. Without other treatment, you’d be feeling pretty bad during most of this time. The purpose of hCG treatment in coming of TRT is to force testicular restart over a 4-6 week period, while you continue taking TRT. In theory this avoids the prolonged months-long crash of stopping TRT. In addition to hCG, some bodybuilders take Clomid to further kick start the hypothalamic-pituitary axis, but the below study implies this probably isn’t vital. Without any medication, the hypothalamus and pituitary are very quick to respond. It is possible hCG might increase estradiol, so possibly a very limited dose of Clomid, Arimidex, etc. could ensure estradiol is low, avoiding negative feedback to the hypothalamus. However that’s somewhat speculative. The key is hCG. Here’s a web page that discusses this: http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i7postcycle.html — Joe D. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, testosterone, and seminal fluid analyses in normal men. Mauss J, Borsch G, Bormacher K, Richter E, Leyendecker G, Nocke W. Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1975 Feb;78(2):373-84.

Response:

Hi, These effects are not established as great or very significant. In fact the data is usually very small effects in a statistically small group. Statistics based on too small a group can be misleading and especially when the data is old. Sometimes other factors such as age or conditions that are related can be enough to upset a study when this is the case. I would suggest talking to my favorite endocrinologist that has been treating men with TRT for decades in Augusta GA. Dr. R. Don Gambrell has a web site and will take questions. http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/ ernestnolan

production (whatever – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that was). To expedite and ease the restart process, there’s a protocol involving hCG and in some cases Clomid. If I remember right Clomid will help get my FSH to rise. If that is the case I don’t know if it will help me because before I started TRT it was twice the normal level. I had a lot of radiation around my gonads when I had rectal cancer, so I may never get the FSH up there again. If you’re otherwise happy on TRT, except for cholesterol, I’d examine that further. I just recently heard of a supplement that is supposed to help bring up the level of cholesterol. I may give it a try and if it works then I may stay on TRT. But I may not be able to stay on due to cut backs in Medicaid and if they do stop helping me I can’t afford the TRT. Some studies show TRT will reduce HDL (good cholesterol), which you don’t want. However other studies don’t show that. Make sure you’ve had a complete lipids profile, including total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, and triglycerides. You should also have a complete blood count (CBC) to check your hematocrit and other values, and a PSA test if you haven’t had one. I had a blood work up just recently and my cholesterol has come up a bit to HDL of 32, Chol/HDL Ratio of 3.0, and my LDL-Direct of 57. If it keeps going up I may be okay. I have been eating a lot of eggs and dairy lately to try to help get it to a higher level. The testosterone molecules in Androgel are identical to what your body naturally makes. In theory there should be no difference, assuming your dosage is properly adjusted. Have your free T and estradiol levels been checked to ensure proper dosage? I just had my estradiol tested and it was normal at 43. When I first started TRT I was getting too much and it went way up, so I cut back. A funny thing I didn’t expect is that when I have higher doses of Testosterone my sex drive goes way down and when I cut back on the dose it goes back up some. That is how I have been regulating my dosage. In most cases it is possible to stop TRT after two years, according to a couple of endocrinologists I asked. This assumes you took it properly at normal replacement levels, not at the very high levels some bodybuilders take. The best case is you’ll revert to your pre-TRT production level, which presumably was deficient else you wouldn’t have taken TRT. There’s a protocol for coming off TRT that involves taking hCG for 1-2 months while you take TRT (ramping down T dosage toward the end), then stopping both. Unfortunately there’s no published data on this I can find. Bodybuilders have a lot of empirical experience with this since they cycle on and off steroids and face the same problem. In addition to hCG they often take Clomid

(Clomiphene Citrate) for a – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – few weeks after the hCG phase. The reasoning is Clomid helps restart the hypothalamus pituitary production of LH. The reason for taking hCG is to force restart of testicular production. After being I just hope my doctors go for the HCG. I hope they do because what you have shared with me make good sense. on TRT for an extended period there’s some atrophy, not just physically but also regarding production capacity. The restart interval seems to be very roughly 4 – 8 weeks, but I can’t find good data on this. Of course you could just quit TRT, but you’d face a harsh several months while your

hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis restarts. There are two restart considerations: testicular restart and

hypothalamus-pituitary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – restart. The limited data I’ve seen indicates testicular restart is the dominate component time-wise, thus the hCG. There was one study on this, but I can’t find it. However bodybuilders often take Clomid for a couple of weeks beginning about a week after the hCG phase. Since estrogen acts as negative feedback reducing pituitary LH production, and Clomid blocks estrogen receptors, this supposedly expedites the hypothalamus-pituitary portion of the restart. If you want to stop TRT first make sure your reasons and concerns are valid. Next review what your pre-TRT testosterone level was. E.g, if this was 250 ng/dl, there’s little reason in even trying to stop TRT. Then discuss with your Dr the restart protocol. At a minimum this should involve hCG injections,

probably 5000 to 7000 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – units per week for 4 to 8 weeks. Following this it may also involve Clomid or some other anti-estrogen drug, but some go without this. — Joe D. Thanks again Joe. Best regards, Mel