Talk Cancer

Question:

  The photos you question show HIV life cycle as well as it’s isolation. Those photographs show only cells and some amorphous blobs. The blobs become HIV by sheer power of wishful thinking. Looking hard enough you’ll see they really show the life cycle of Elvis.

   You poor creature.  You seem to be in deep need for denial.  I wonder what the pay off for this need is in you?   I wonder if you are infected and hope that this denial will save you from the grim fate or if you are deluding yourself that you are not at risk for contracting this infection?   These are the two payoffs that I am aware of for people that take your position.       The methods that you deny have been quite successful in preventing transmission of this disease via blood transfusion.   That is a strong clue that the basic methods work as the men of actual science think that they do.   But you have some higher need and I understand your pain.    Truth is not what you need, it’s psychological support that you need.   I am sorry for you in that you seem to need to play games with the truth, but that is what you are doing.    You are not a man of science but a man in deep denial. What is the question?       Gertrude Stein’s last words No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing.    Alan Watts On Display in the UK     http://www.web-gallery.co.uk

Response:

  The photos you question show HIV life cycle as well as it’s isolation.

Those photographs show only cells and some amorphous blobs. The blobs become HIV by sheer power of wishful thinking. Looking hard enough you’ll see they really show the life cycle of Elvis. Even the captions of those pictures don’t dare claim it’s HIV. They are labeled simply as "particles". Nothing more can be claimed. You are being here more roman the the Pope. Concentrated virus is free from cellular debris. No virus isolation can be claimed from the cell pictures Gary has proposed. AIDS pushers always fail to produce the isolated virus when they are required to put forward the evidence. The URLs that you provide show a lot of indistinct spheres, which serve as indications of a virus …

Quite right, except for "indistinct". The point of ISOLATION is to serve as starting point in the identification of a new species of virus. It has failed with HIV. My proposed URLs were so good that even you were able to clearly identify viruses in the shape of "spheres". Indeed viruses have precise geometrical shapes. Compare that accurate shape info to the blurred amorphous blobs from HIV pseudo-isolation. Those blobs can be claimed to be anything you want them to. The importance of ISOLATION can not be sufficiently stressed. It provides detailed morphological info necessary to verify the existence and to classify a potentially new virus, and any other beast for that matter. Second, it provides the only reliable biochemical info. When you extract components from a virus isolate (thus cell free) you are 100% sure you are extracting viral material. On the other hand, since cell-free isolation of HIV has never been accomplished, HIV tests are being manufatured from the contents of pseudo-isolates consisting of 99.9% human cell debris. This improper isolation has dire consequences for public health and human lives. The direct consequence of this is that HIV tests are not detecting antibodies to HIV as it is claimed, but antibodies to human cells. No wonder then that their results are whimsical to the extreme. No wonder that their interpretation, requires subjective input such as the sexual habits of the tested subjects. Only this way facts can be forced to match the fiction. No wonder either that they cross react to 70+ conditions including pregnancy, giving false positives. Those random tests should be inmediately forbidden and those responsible of so many shattered lives must be made to pay for their negligence. It would be easy to play "Perth Group" on your examples.

go ahead, try. You and the Perth People take this cynicism to extreme unreal lengths.

Virus isolation is relatively straightforward. It has been done routinely with every species of virus. If you claim that what is routine work for any existing virus is an impossibility in the particular case of HIV then you should be able to provide us with the exceptional reasons that render it impossible. The only exceptional reason why normal virus isolation has failed with HIV after 20 years of millionaire funding is simply because such entity does not exist. It is a mirage of high-tech biochemistry devices in untrained or dollar tainted hands. Web-based anonymous mailer http://209.67.19.98/lark2k/anonymail.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If those lymph nodes are really festering with HIV as they claim, why in is it so damn difficult for to produce a single HIV isolation and show to the world an EM photograph of the beast in all its glory? That would be standard virology. Gee maybe because it’s not that hard any more, and that has been done many times if you would like to see EM’s of most of HIV’s life cycel take a look at;

http://www.mcl.tulane.edu/departments/pathology/fermin/HIVFIGSTable.ht ml — Gary Stein Gary, you and for that matter all AIDS pseudo-scientists prefer to ignore the meaning of ISLOLATION. If ANY CELLS appear in the picture it means the isolation has FAILED. Isolation means virus free from any cell debris.

 You can persist in your self created fantasy of denial as long as you  wish Mike. However you can not deny that a set of life cycle EM’s is  actually more convincing and instructive as to the understanding of a  particular virus then is a single indistinct virus in isolation.  Though there are EM’s of HIV alone as well they are just as indistinct   as the examples of other viruses you posted and thus much less  instructive.  The Perth groups theories are so far out in left field that they have  as yet been unable to convince a single virologist to join there work  group in it’s hypothesis. They are so completely unable to defend  there hypothesis that they had to come up with and an incredibly bogus  excuse for not taking up Mebiki’s invitation to join his panel. HTH  –  Gary Stein  http://www.mischealthaids.org  "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea  massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and  a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect  it."           (Gene Spafford) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Dissidents don’t exist!  Go away!

Oh well! Have another joint!

Response:

Gary, you and for that matter all AIDS pseudo-scientists prefer to ignore the meaning of ISLOLATION. If ANY CELLS appear in the picture it means the isolation has FAILED. Isolation means virus free from any cell debris. It seems the URL you give is the best you can produce. None of those pictures claim to be of isolated HIV. Let’s take a look at what YOU believe is "isolated HIV":

  The photos you question show HIV life cycle as well as it’s isolation.   The URLs that you provide show a lot of indistinct spheres, which serve as indications of a virus but do not illustrate HIV’s life cycle.  It would be easy to play "Perth Group" on your examples.   You and the Perth People take this cynicism to extreme unreal lengths. What is the question?       Gertrude Stein’s last words No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing.    Alan Watts On Display in the UK     http://www.web-gallery.co.uk

Response:

Gary, you and for that matter all AIDS pseudo-scientists prefer to ignore the meaning of ISLOLATION. If ANY CELLS appear in the picture it means the isolation has FAILED. Isolation means virus free from any cell debris.

Only to virusmyth adherents.  to a microbiologist isolation means separation from other microorganisms such that you are able to propage a pure culture. If you "Isolate" E. coli from someone’s stool you separate a particular clone of the e. coli bacteria that are present from the other bacteria there.  In the case of HIV this has been accomplished using limiting dilution assays.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If those lymph nodes are really festering with HIV as they claim, why in is it so damn difficult for to produce a single HIV isolation and show to the world an EM photograph of the beast in all its glory? That would be standard virology. Gee maybe because it’s not that hard any more, and that has been done many times if you would like to see EM’s of most of HIV’s life cycel take a look at;

http://www.mcl.tulane.edu/departments/pathology/fermin/HIVFIGSTable.ht ml — Gary Stein Gary, you and for that matter all AIDS pseudo-scientists prefer to ignore the meaning of ISLOLATION. If ANY CELLS appear in the picture it means the isolation has FAILED. Isolation means virus free from any cell debris.

You can persist in your self created fantasy of denial as long as you wish Mike. However you can not deny that a set of life cycle EM’s is actually more convincing and instructive as to the understanding of a particular virus then is a single indistinct virus in isolation. Though there are EM’s of HIV alone as well they are just as indistinct as the examples of other viruses you posted and thus much less instructive. The Perth groups theories are so far out in left field that they have as yet been unable to convince a single virologist to join there work group in it’s hypothesis. They are so completely unable to defend there hypothesis that they had to come up with and an incredibly bogus excuse for not taking up Mebiki’s invitation to join his panel. HTH — Gary Stein http://www.mischealthaids.org "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."          (Gene Spafford)

Response:

If those lymph nodes are really festering with HIV as they claim, why in is it so damn difficult for to produce a single HIV isolation and show to the world an EM photograph of the beast in all its glory? That would be standard virology. Gee maybe because it’s not that hard any more, and that has been done many times if you would like to see EM’s of most of HIV’s life cycel take a look at; http://www.mcl.tulane.edu/departments/pathology/fermin/HIVFIGSTable.html — Gary Stein

Gary, you and for that matter all AIDS pseudo-scientists prefer to ignore the meaning of ISLOLATION. If ANY CELLS appear in the picture it means the isolation has FAILED. Isolation means virus free from any cell debris. It seems the URL you give is the best you can produce. None of those pictures claim to be of isolated HIV. Let’s take a look at what YOU believe is "isolated HIV": "HUT-78 (H9) Cells + SF33 HIV. HIV particles attach to lymphocytes…" thus no HIV isolation as you claim. "Budding from the Membrane. Membrane densities like this are taken as indication that HIV particles are ready to exit the infected cell…" More indirect happy asumptions "taken as an indication". Again lots of cell membranes but NO isolated HIV anywhere. "Acute infection. When cells are exposed to large numbers of virus, many particles are seen/micrometer square attached the cell …" A lot of cells and PARTICLES yes. Even the author of this picture does not venture to call those "particles" HIV. Thus no isolated HIV either. "Selective Attachment. Attachment of a single particle in the presence of other at the  same level on the cell membrane …" Again more cells and no trace of isolation and so on and so on… Gary, you can fool yourself with these EM pictures of "isolated HIV" if you want. I bet you can believe in the existence of the Yeti? You’ve probably seen "irrefutable" pictures of his tracks on the snow. An EM photograph of an isolated virus should show its morphology clearly as is the case with the rest of the viruses, these are real isolation examples: http://life.anu.edu.au/viruses/Images/Ackerman/Animalvi/Astrovir/551-… http://life.anu.edu.au/viruses/Images/Queensun/vsd23_c.htm http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ICTVdb/WebIntkey/Images/em_norwa.gif http://wwwparent.qub.ac.uk/afs/vs/vsd19.jpg http://wwwparent.qub.ac.uk/afs/vs/vsd20.jpg http://www.res.bbsrc.ac.uk/plantpath/virusems/b6.gif But as everybody knows, even 50 billion dollars are not enough to isolate a virus that only exists in the minds of a few racist ouritans. Mike

Response:

Gene-marked CTL were present in the lymph node at 4.5- to 11-fold excess and colocalized within parafollicular regions of the lymph node adjacent to cells expressing HIV tat fusion transcripts, a correlate of virus replication. AIDS science invisible bug hunters are so out of track that the only way thay can see any HIV at all is to devise all kinds of fancy indirect measures of indirect parameters of indirect cells of… that matches their preconceptions of what HIV should be.

Dissidents don’t exist!  Go away! Before you buy.

Response:

Gene-marked CTL were present in the lymph node at 4.5- to 11-fold excess and colocalized within parafollicular regions of the lymph node adjacent to cells expressing HIV tat fusion transcripts, a correlate of virus replication. AIDS science invisible bug hunters are so out of track that the only way thay can see any HIV at all is to devise all kinds of fancy indirect measures of indirect parameters of indirect cells of… that matches their preconceptions of what HIV should be.

Sorry that the scince is so hard for you to understand Mike yet just because you don’t understand it that does not meant that it is bad science. These studies show that the infused CTL specifically migrate to sites of HIV replication… If those lymph nodes are really festering with HIV as they claim, why in is it so damn difficult for to produce a single HIV isolation and show to the world an EM photograph of the beast in all its glory? That would be standard virology.

Gee maybe because it’s not that hard any more, and that has been done many times if you would like to see EM’s of most of HIV’s life cycel take a look at; http://www.mcl.tulane.edu/departments/pathology/fermin/HIVFIGSTable.ht ml — Gary Stein http://www.mischealthaids.org "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."          (Gene Spafford)

Response:

Gene-marked CTL were present in the lymph node at 4.5- to 11-fold excess and colocalized within parafollicular regions of the lymph node adjacent to cells expressing HIV tat fusion transcripts, a correlate of virus replication.

AIDS science invisible bug hunters are so out of track that the only way thay can see any HIV at all is to devise all kinds of fancy indirect measures of indirect parameters of indirect cells of… that matches their preconceptions of what HIV should be. These studies show that the infused CTL specifically migrate to sites of HIV replication…

If those lymph nodes are really festering with HIV as they claim, why in is it so damn difficult for to produce a single HIV isolation and show to the world an EM photograph of the beast in all its glory? That would be standard virology. HIV is the yeti of science, plenty of tracks in the snow but noone has ever witnessed the animal. While thousands of people are dying of poisoning or malnutrition these ghostbusters keep wasting their time and everyone’s money in running after a biochemical hallucination. Mike Web-based anonymous mailer http://209.67.19.98/lark2k/anonymail.html

Response:

J Clin Invest 2000 May 15;105(10):1407-1417 HIV-specific cytotoxic T lymphocytes traffic to lymph nodes and localize at sites of HIV replication and cell death. Brodie SJ, Patterson BK, Lewinsohn DA, Diem K, Spach D, Greenberg PD, Riddell SR, Corey L Department of Laboratory Medicine, University of Washington, Seattle, Washington, USA. Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Northwestern University Medical School, Chicago, Illinois, USA. Department of Medicine, University of Washington, Seattle, Washington, USA. Program in Immunology, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, Seattle, Washington, USA. Department of Immunology, University of Washington, Seattle, Washington, USA. Program in Infectious Diseases, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, Seattle, Washington, USA. [Record supplied by publisher] We have tracked the in vivo migration and have identified in vivo correlates of cytotoxic T-lymphocyte (CTL) activity in HIV-seropositive subjects infused with autologous gene-marked CD8(+) HIV-specific CTL. The number of circulating gene-marked CTL ranged from 1.6 to 3.5% shortly after infusion to less than 0.5% 2 weeks later. Gene-marked CTL were present in the lymph node at 4.5- to 11-fold excess and colocalized within parafollicular regions of the lymph node adjacent to cells expressing HIV tat fusion transcripts, a correlate of virus replication. The CTL clones expressed the CCR5 receptor and localized among HIV-infected cells expressing the ligands MIP-1alpha and MIP-1beta, CC-chemokines produced at sites of virus replication. Aggregates of apoptotic cells and cells expressing granzyme-B localized within these same sites. In contrast, lymph node sections from untreated HIV-seropositive subjects, all with significant viral burden ( 50,000 HIV RNA copies/mL plasma), showed no CC-chemokine expression and exhibited only sporadic and randomly distributed cells expressing granzymes and/or apoptotic cells. These studies show that the infused CTL specifically migrate to sites of HIV replication and retain their antigen-specific cytolytic potential. Moreover, these studies provide a methodology that will facilitate studies of both the magnitude and functional phenotype of Ag-specific CD8(+) T cells in vivo — Gary Stein http://www.mischealthaids.org "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."          (Gene Spafford)

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