Help: How to end join 2×4 table apron?

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Question:

: : Problem: how to make the 3/4" plywood table abolutely rigid to prevent : : flexing, etc. Still needs to be as light as possible. : : Also, many thanks to HBK for his excellent suggestions! If you really want to go lightweight the train mags also suggest building a lightweight frame (1×3) and making the surface out of foam insulation. Steve Pamer

Response:

If having thickness in the top skin is not a limiting factor, just go buy a hollow-core door and save the aggravation.

Unfortunately, for a model-train table, you usually need at least a 4 foot width, as that’s about the minimum turning diameter for an HO-scale train. Do hollow core doors come that wide? Tb’s suggestion of a "torsion box" is excellent. Filling the core with rigid foam insulation might also help dampen vibrations (?), as well as making the table stiffer. Tim

Response:

ton) writes:

::it will pivot up towards the ceiling with a pully setup and be latched in :place there. Drop down legs as in cafeteria table or card table. : roblem: how to make the 3/4" plywood table abolutely rigid to prevent :flexing, etc. Still needs to be as light as possible. :Also, many thanks to HBK for his excellent suggestions! Charles; If you can stand only a 3 foot width, try a hollow core door. This is rigid and inexpensive, no assembly required!

Response:

Several very excellent suggestions concerning the rigidity factor of this RR surface have been to use a stressed, hollow core lamination as in a door. Unfortunately, there is one heck of a lot of drilling and wiring that goes on for electrical switches, etc. So, I am afraid that hollow lamination – of the permanent glue up variety, is out of consideration. I am really appreciating the expertise being provided. I suppose this still leaves me with a 3/4" with 1×2 trim, cross braced underneath? Happy holidays to all cheers chas subscribe to news.announce.newgroups and VOTE on new groups! support a rec.guns.blackpowder & singleshot usenet newsgroup

Response:

In answer to what I believe was your original post, that is, how does one join the ends of 2×4’s to form an apron, here are a couple of thoughts. The easisest method of forming the corners is with butt joints. They are, however, butt ugly as well, especially if you’re not all to fond of end grain. You could also miter the ends and hide the grain, but you had best start off with stock whose sides are square to one another, or you’ll drive yourself silly trying to get things to line up later. You don’t need biscuits or splines for a light table, but toenail the two pieces to one another and glue securely. I prefer to glue and clamp until the glue is tacky but not hard, then nail. People speak highly of the Bessey corner clamps, but I would recommend the Ulmia miter clamps (Woodcraft, Shlosser, and a few others carry them–they look like hog rings) or the gizmos that look like spring clamps but for their alligator-tooth jaws. If you think you will be taking it apart, I recommend against lag bolts as they won’t give you too many assembly cycles. In your situation, I would install a 1/4-20 tee nut on the inside of the leg and make a fastener by epoxying a 1/4-20 bolt into on of those overgrown black plastic wing nuts. Just thread it in and use the glue as a thread locker. Let the table edge extend far enough to keep these from becoming knee-knockers. If you attach the legs through both faces at the corner, it becomes a reinforcement, and you can get away without a corner cleat (I’m picturing a 3×3 or 4×4 as a leg). As for attaching the table to the apron, I probably wouldn’t–just use a few 1×2 blocks as locating cleats on the underside of the table top. This will let you store it flat against the wall. I tried to use those stamped steel sawhorse brackets to make a knock-down router table, but they weren’t steady enough. Hope some of this is helpful. Regards, Dan Schkolnik Portland, OR

Response:

: My son wants a 4×8 train table so, I have bought 2×4s for the aprons and : 2×2s for the legs since the legs need to be removable. The last is the : thing that throws the monkey wrench in the gears in re joinery. : Now we have decided to hang it off the wall hinged from a shelf about 3′ : from the floor, the depth of the shelf being in excess of the highest point : of his constructions on the bed. : it will pivot up towards the ceiling with a pully setup and be latched in : place there. Drop down legs as in cafeteria table or card table. : Problem: how to make the 3/4" plywood table abolutely rigid to prevent : flexing, etc. Still needs to be as light as possible. : Also, many thanks to HBK for his excellent suggestions! If the materials ain’t bought yet, start by ditching the 3/4 plywood in favor of 1/2", for weight. I’d go even lighter except I suspect you’re going to want to tack track and so on to the surface. Frame the apron with 1×2’s, using a cross-member every 2′ or so. Glue and screw the top to the apron. Now, use a piece of the cheapest paneling you can get to make an "underskin" for the piece; glue and screw to the frame just like the top. Hey, presto — cheapie torsion box. It should be very rigid, even though I’ve suggested using fewer crossmembers than you would with a real torsion box (which is basically a lumber grid with two skins). If you filled in between the crossmembers with rigid insulation foam it’d be even stiffer. If having thickness in the top skin is not a limiting factor, just go buy a hollow-core door and save the aggravation. Best, Tb. — — | Cornell Law School Vox: 607-255-1221 | | Ithaca, NY 14853 | | "When I went to Cornell I became a different person." | | — Screen goddess Mary Woronov, former Warhol Whip Dancer and | | star of "Rock ‘n’Roll High School","Eating Raoul", etc. |

Response:

Now we have decided to hang it off the wall hinged from a shelf about 3′ from the floor, the depth of the shelf being in excess of the highest point of his constructions on the bed. it will pivot up towards the ceiling with a pully setup and be latched in place there. Drop down legs as in cafeteria table or card table. Problem: how to make the 3/4" plywood table abolutely rigid to prevent flexing, etc. Still needs to be as light as possible. Also, many thanks to HBK for his excellent suggestions! cheers chas subscribe to news.announce.newgroups and VOTE on new groups! support a rec.guns.blackpowder & singleshot usenet newsgroup

Response:

My son wants a 4×8 train table so, I have bought 2×4s for the aprons and 2×2s for the legs since the legs need to be removable. The last is the thing that throws the monkey wrench in the gears in re joinery. Help? thanks in advance chas Charles Hamilton | Endowment NRA, Life TSRA, Life NMLRA, Life DAV, Houston, TX | Woodworking, Shooting

Response:

My son wants a 4×8 train table so, chas Charles Hamilton | Endowment NRA, Life TSRA, Life NMLRA, Life DAV, Houston, TX | Woodworking, Shooting

For one thing, you can get "card table" leg supports, and they will fold down within the aprons. Another thing is to use carriage bolts with wing nuts, but each time to remove the leg, you will have to remove at least one of the two bolts on each leg. Why even have legs? Put the top on saw horses instead.

Response:

: My son wants a 4×8 train table so, : chas : : For one thing, you can get "card table" leg supports, and they will fold : down within the aprons. Another thing is to use carriage bolts with wing : nuts, but each time to remove the leg, you will have to remove at least : one of the two bolts on each leg. : Why even have legs? Put the top on saw horses instead. I built a train table for my daughter last year. I built 2-5×4 platforms/ tables that fastened in the middle to make a 5×8 table (Lionel needs a little more room). I did this so I could take it apart and store it when _our_ interest was not so high. I made the aprons out of 1 x 3 because 2 x 4’s are awfully heavy. The top was 1/4 ply. Very light and easy to store. I use carriage bolts to join in middle and set ours on top of saw horses. I like the "card table" leg support idea. If you are running ‘N’ or ‘HO’ gauge I saw a platform for sale at Home Depot that was light and inexpensive. It was not 4×8 but was about the same size as a door. No, it wasn’t a door but I have seen in the model railroad mags where they reccommend using old doors. Just more thoughts on the subject. Steve Pamer

Response:

Chas, Since you’re using construction lumber, I assume you are looking for easy, basic methods, not ultra fine joinery. I suggest you do simple butt joints (glued and screwed) for the corners. If you have biscuit jointer, you could reinforce the joints with biscuits. Otherwise you could dovetail the corners. At each corner, insert a corner block with a notch in the inside corner for the 2×2 legs. The block should be even with the lower edge of the rails. The block forces the leg against the inside of the rail joint. If the fit is tight, it should be stable. You could make the notch smaller than the 2×2 and taper the end of the leg for a snug friction fit. Taper it so that it wedges tight as it touches the underside of the top. Just pull the legs out when you want to move the table. An alternative way to hold the legs is to use table leg bolts (steel rod threaded one end with wood screw threads and the other end threaded for a wing nut). The screw goes into the leg, the bolt goes thru a thin (steel) corner brace. These parts should be available at your local home center or thru mail orders catalogs. I’m sure there are more ways, but these might start the thinking process. Have fun, Charlie

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