Talk Cancer

Question:

… For the micro-bevel, however I use chromium polishing cream on glass. No doubt one could go finer, but there is a limit on perfectionism for run-of-the-mill sharpening isn’t there? (Or is there?)

Is there such a thing as run-of-the-mill sharpening ?  I have wondered myself about the abrasiveness of the MDF.  I try to keep the edge ‘floating’ on a thickness of rouge.  The stuff tends to gather in clumps so you get something like a diamond stone with small islands of compound spread out over the board.  And you don’t have to press down on the blade very much. I like your cream on glass step.  Think I might swap my MDF for a thick plate of glass onto which I’d rub the green stuff. Paul .

Response:

I finish on a 12 inch square tile of polished marble with rouge. I also lap my stones on marble. Champ

Response:

~  I like your cream on glass step.  Think I might swap my MDF for a thick ~  plate of glass onto which I’d rub the green stuff. The snag with glass is that the abrasive needs to be fairly fluid. For use while /backfacing/ it tends to be squished out very quickly. Hence the use of wood a holding medium. I rub green buffing soap on wood that has had a solvent (white spirit, kerosine (paraffin)) applied to enable fairly even application. However, as written previously, the wood might be more abrasive than one realises and could scratch the metal. I doesn’t really worry me greatly because for most woodworking jobs, one has to accept that one can take perfectionism to an unrealistic stage. I believe that cast iron and copper are used as bases for lapping metals, but the difficulty or expense of obtaining suitable surfaces, and the belief in drawing a line somewhere, has put me off further experiment. For many years, I used to freehand-hone on a medium Aloxite stone followed by a Washita or Charnley Forest stone, but with a home-made honing guide, the glass gives better results with very little extra effort. What I have read of waterstones does not encourage me to move in that direction. Incidentally, the Charnley Forest stone is no longer available. It is a slow-cutting stone that used to be quarried in Charnwood Forest in Leicestershire, England. As a student, I was told where one of the old quarries was located, so was able to scrounge a few pieces to supplement the one I inherited some years ago. I recall being allowed to root around only after satisfactorily answering a woodworking quiz from the old gentleman who challenged our arrival on the site. Over and out. — Jeff Gorman – West Yorkshire

Response:

Garret Wade sells some HARD felt buffing wheels that are really good for sharpening.

Response:

Garret Wade sells some HARD felt buffing wheels that are really good for sharpening.

Tim, How do you deal with the rounding over of the edge?

Response:

1. I also have gotten the hard felt from Woodworker’s Supply 2. Remember that this is a polishing step — not a metal removal step. I use the Veritas buffing compound and take a VERY light cut at the primary bevel angle — I do not use a secondary bevel, at least not on purpose. 3. I have had a reasonable amount of practice at buffing on gun barrels where a heavy hand means a LOT more work.

Response:

Jeff, I think the mentioned "rounding over" is not to the beveled back but instead to the cutting edge.  As most polishing compounds are so fine the chance of rounding over the bevel is pretty small.  The edge, however, honed to a razors edge round really quickly! (as I’m sure you know). That is why I like using a flat leather surface when it is possible. Regards and happy Holidays – steve

Response:

I just saw an idea for a cheap buffing wheel that sounds good. Cut a circle from 3/4 inch flooring plywood ( no voids ) and true it on the sander.  Drill the appropriate size hole in the center, mount it on the buffer, and true it again with a coarse sanding block. Then glue weatherstripping felt around the wheel with the ends scarfed so the lap is downstream, add your favorite buffing compound and go for it.  A solid base buffer that will not wrap around the edge, at an affordable cost. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: The buffing wheel hasn’t worked for me either for what I suspect is the same reason – the wheel does some rounding (I think). Pete from VA In his book on sharpening, Leonard Lee recommends using a hard felt buffing wheel, as the muslin buffs wrap around the edge.

Response:

I just saw an idea for a cheap buffing wheel that sounds good. Cut a circle from 3/4 inch flooring plywood ( no voids ) and true it on the sander.  Drill the appropriate size hole in the center, mount it on the buffer, and true it again with a coarse sanding block. Then glue weatherstripping felt around the wheel with the ends scarfed so the lap is downstream, add your favorite buffing compound and go for it.  A solid base buffer that will not wrap around the edge, at an affordable cost. John

Sounds good.  The felt on a good buffing wheel is pretty hard.  Consider using leather instead.  That would be even firmer.  Someone sells these, or maybe they use a rubber band. Vince

Response:

: Sounds good.  The felt on a good buffing wheel is pretty hard.  Consider : using leather instead.  That would be even firmer.  Someone sells these, or : maybe they use a rubber band. : Vince I did this with a leather strip glued on a wooden disk.  One hint is to mount the wheel and somehow make a temporary tool rest, and true the edge (ie turn the disk) before you mount the strip.  I use the compound that Tormek sells for their machines and it works very well. — Jonathan Yuen                          phone: 46 18 663944 Department of Cancer Epidemiology      fax:   46 18 503431 Uppsala University                     email replies to: S 751 85 Uppsala SWEDEN

Response:

I also use this method for some tools, but remember that you will round the end of the tool over if all you do is hone on a wheel and don’t sharpen on a stone aswell.

I’ve tried final honing on a felt wheel (a medium, though it probably should have been hard) and found that although it did produce a sharper edge than not doing it, I had to be very careful so as not to round over the edge. I now use a scap piece of MDF onto which I rub some Veritas green compound.  If you use a guide for sharpening, just leave the blade in the guide and rub back and forth on the MDF.  I start with 1000 then 4000 on waterstones, then finish up on the compound. Paul .

Response:

Some time ago I decided to make better use (or at least more flexible use) of my Makita Horizontal Grinder (water wheel).  I retrofited varying grades of 8 inch diamond  surfaces for the water stones, which worked great, but I also purchased a plain 8" aluminum plate which I covered with leather, and charged with green compound.  This (the leather honing) technique produced a significantly better edge than the buffing pad.  I guess that a firm surface like leather, especially working on a large horizontal plane reduces the chance of rounding over. Anyhow produced the best, sharpest,  edge I have ever produced and I have not had any trouble honing in the past.  This process just seems to work better. regards – Steve

Response:

~  I’ve tried final honing on a felt wheel (a medium, though it probably should ~  have been hard) and found that although it did produce a sharper edge ~  than not doing it, I had to be very careful so as not to round over the edge. To what extend does the sin of "rounding over" really matter? What does matter is the angle of the tangent to the rounded bevel at the very very tip. The rest is a matter conformity to the commandment "Thou shalt not round over thy bevels" as preached in many a woodworking testament. For a plane, thou shalt not round thy bevel to the point that the clearance angle is so reduced that the working of the plane is impaired. If thou roundest off thy backface, thy cutting angle will be increased, sometimes beneficially, sometimes not. For a chisel, rounding off the backface /is/ serious, since when relying on the contact of the backface with the material for control, rounding means raising the handle to make the edge cut, with the consequence that the self-guidance of the tool is lost. Carving gouges are another matter entirely. It is for these tools that the buffing techniques were first introduced, of course. Taking the discussion away from machine buffing techniques, my bet is that all but a very few of hand-honed bevels are dead flat. Would the ‘net second-hand/antique tool dealers care to comment on the quality of bevels as received on tools when first obtained from the majority of working craftsmen? Consistency of angle is important, however, when using the third-bevel (or maybe for full bevel honers the second-bevel) technique in which a highly polished and very narrow bevel is formed at the tip of the conventional honing bevel at about one or two degrees higher angle. A honing gauge is virtually essential in this case. ~  I now use a scap piece of MDF onto which I rub some Veritas green ~  compound.  If you use a guide for sharpening, just leave the blade in the ~  guide and rub back and forth on the MDF. Using MDF is a bright idea I had not yet thought of. I’ve been using green compound on end-grain beech for renovating the backs of polished plane irons and chisels when backing off is found to be necessary, but it has occured to me that the very wood extractives that blunt the tools could also be scratching the metal, at least until the block is well worn-in perhaps. How abrasive is MDF itself, I wonder? ~  I start with 1000 then 4000 on ~  waterstones, then finish up on the compound. For the micro-bevel, however I use chromium polishing cream on glass. No doubt one could go finer, but there is a limit on perfectionism for run-of-the-mill sharpening isn’t there? (Or is there?) Over and out. — Jeff Gorman – West Yorkshire

Response:

The buffing wheel hasn’t worked for me either for what I suspect is the same reason – the wheel does some rounding (I think). Pete from VA

Response:

writes: The buffing wheel hasn’t worked for me either for what I suspect is the same reason – the wheel does some rounding (I think). Pete from VA

In his book on sharpening, Leonard Lee recommends using a hard felt buffing wheel, as the muslin buffs wrap around the edge.

Response:

I’ve had good experience with a buffing wheel with some polishing compound on it.  Good steel approaches razor sharpness with little chance of overheating the steel. |   Don’t send me files or attachments larger than 30K combined!    |

Response:

I’ve had good experience with a buffing wheel with some polishing compound on it.  Good steel approaches razor sharpness with little chance of overheating the steel.

I also use this method for some tools, but remember that you will round the end of the tool over if all you do is hone on a wheel and don’t sharpen on a stone aswell. Rob — Robert Harvey http://turnpike.net/~rharvey

Response:

I just learned from a friend how to put a razor sharp edge on chisels, planes etc.  After grinding the bevel on the tool, I place the beveled edge against a buffing wheel.  The wheel, which is mounted in a drill press, has a bit of white or red rouge applied as an abrasive.  Hold the tool with the bevel parrallel to the wheels sharpening surface. The sharp edge should be trailing to prevent the tool from catching on the buffing wheel.  It only takes about 30 seconds to buff out the grinding marks left by the grinding wheel.  It may be necessary to remove the whisker from the edge by briefly buffing the other side of the tool.

Two problems: 1. The rounding off of the edge and resultant loss of  control over the actual angle of cut.  The buffed cutting edge will encounter the wood at some angle other than the bevel angle.  This may cause all kinds of problems with tear-out, chatter, etc.  (Or it may not. The problem is lack of predictability and repeatability.)  2.  Don’t neglect the BACK of the blade.  In the case of bench-plane blades (which are used with the bevel down) the back IS the cutting edge. It must be Flat and honed as well as the bevel or it won’t work worth beans.  Again, a rounded off back is not good. FYI  I have used the buffer to save time when sharpening and find it useful.  But I’m Very Careful not to round off the edge and use the buffer only for final polishing on edges that are almost there already (and I’m too lazy to or it’s not important enough to use the polishing stones.)

Response:

I just learned from a friend how to put a razor sharp edge on chisels, planes etc.  After grinding the bevel on the tool, I place the beveled edge against a buffing wheel.  The wheel, which is mounted in a drill press, has a bit of white or red rouge applied as an abrasive.  Hold the tool with the bevel parrallel to the wheels sharpening surface. The sharp edge should be trailing to prevent the tool from catching on the buffing wheel.  It only takes about 30 seconds to buff out the grinding marks left by the grinding wheel.  It may be necessary to remove the whisker from the edge by briefly buffing the other side of the tool. You should be able to shave the hair from your arm with the edge so be careful…. This is my first post and it would be nice to know if this is useful to anyone.  If so please let me know what your results were or if you’ve discovered an improvement to the above method. Thanks in advance…. Kevin Hawes Greentown IN

Response:

: I just learned from a friend how to put a razor sharp edge on chisels, : planes etc.  After grinding the bevel on the tool, I place the beveled : edge against a buffing wheel.  The wheel, which is mounted in a drill : press, has a bit of white or red rouge applied as an abrasive.  Hold : the tool with the bevel parrallel to the wheels sharpening surface. : The sharp edge should be trailing to prevent the tool from catching on : the buffing wheel.  It only takes about 30 seconds to buff out the : grinding marks left by the grinding wheel.  It may be necessary to : remove the whisker from the edge by briefly buffing the other side of : the tool. : You should be able to shave the hair from your arm with the edge so be : careful…. This is true, but you can do even better by doing a traditional coarse and then fine honing before you buff.  The edge won’t be any sharper, but it will last a lot longer, and can be restored many many times by buffing before it needs to be rehoned, let along reground. I don’t know why this should be the case, but my hypothesis is that buffing straight from the grinder produces the same effect as going from a coarse to too-fine a grit. Buffing straight-edged tools can round the bevel, but this shouldn’t be a problem as long as you’re aware of it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just learned from a friend how to put a razor sharp edge on chisels, planes etc.  After grinding the bevel on the tool, I place the beveled edge against a buffing wheel.  The wheel, which is mounted in a drill press, has a bit of white or red rouge applied as an abrasive.  Hold the tool with the bevel parrallel to the wheels sharpening surface. The sharp edge should be trailing to prevent the tool from catching on the buffing wheel.  It only takes about 30 seconds to buff out the grinding marks left by the grinding wheel.  It may be necessary to remove the whisker from the edge by briefly buffing the other side of the tool. You should be able to shave the hair from your arm with the edge so be careful…. This is my first post and it would be nice to know if this is useful to anyone.  If so please let me know what your results were or if you’ve discovered an improvement to the above method.

Buffing wheels tend to round the cutting edge, but work very well for many carving tools where this is desirable anyways. A hard felt/leather wheel, or a leather strop are possibly better choices for chisels and plane irons. — -Mark My opinions, etc.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I just learned from a friend how to put a razor sharp edge on chisels, : planes etc.  After grinding the bevel on the tool, I place the beveled : edge against a buffing wheel.  The wheel, which is mounted in a drill : press, has a bit of white or red rouge applied as an abrasive.  Hold : the tool with the bevel parrallel to the wheels sharpening surface. : The sharp edge should be trailing to prevent the tool from catching on : the buffing wheel.  It only takes about 30 seconds to buff out the : grinding marks left by the grinding wheel.  It may be necessary to : remove the whisker from the edge by briefly buffing the other side of : the tool. : You should be able to shave the hair from your arm with the edge so be : careful….

    What you say is very true, I have sharpened my knives, (pocket, kitchen, etc..) this way for years. You only have to watch out for one thing: If the metal you are sharpening has been heat tempered then the polishing action can ruin the temper of the metal. As I am sure you are aware the polishing does heat up the metal quite a bit. In fact if your not careful it will burn you. So I always take one pass on the buffer wheel for the entire length of the blade and then let it cool a bit so as to not let it get too hot. I have a Case XX pocket knife that is 20 years old and has been sharpened in this manner since it was brand new and it still takes an edge that will shave. Steve Abaffy

Response:

I just learned from a friend how to put a razor sharp edge on chisels, planes etc.  After grinding the bevel on the tool, I place the beveled edge against a buffing wheel. …

Dear Kevin,         I dislike the use of a buffing wheel for this purpose and always use a leather hone.  Here is why.         The cloth wheel can rap around the tool edge rounding it off ever so slightly.  This produces a edge that looks great but is not to sharp. This is partically improtant with "V" tools and high number gouges.         The wheel does remove grinding marks but these should have been removed on a fine stone (like hard Arkansas) before honing.  You seem to be skipping steps.         For work in tough woods like oak, you do not want an edge that will shave your arm.  Such an edge does not have enough steel behind it and will not stand up.  You need the final edge set a slightly blunter angle.         Handling sharp tools around the flying cloth wheel _feels_ dangerous to me.  It also removes the pleasure of the hand work of finish sharpening.         Riley

Response: